XPost: comp.theory, sci.math
From: 046-301-5902@kylheku.com
On 2025-11-29, olcott wrote:
> On 11/28/2025 10:17 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2025-11-29, olcott wrote:
>>> On 11/28/2025 8:58 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> On 2025-11-29, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2021 11:56 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>>>> In Message ID , Peter
>>>>>> Olcott admits that he's wrong according to "conventional analysis" and
that
>>>>>> discussing with him requires following some "unconventional"
>>>>>> analysis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PO: I understand where you are coming from. I am coming from somewhere
else.
>>>>>> PO: If you analyze what I am saying using conventional analysis then
what I
>>>>>> PO: am saying is incorrect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Conventional analysis" is the only vessel which lets us sail into every
>>>>>> imaginable universe such that we can be sure of anything. Those
>>>>>> universes are the only "somewhere elses" we need.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Kaz cannot think outside the box*
>>>>
>>>> Nope; I don't want to think outside of the correctness box,
>>>> if I can help it. Only by accident.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yet you define the correctness box by conformity to
>>> the preconceived notions of others.
>>
>> You're one of the others from where I'm standing.
>>
>> You're one of those others who just say, "don't critically
>> examine what I say, just accept it".
>>
>> So, no, I don't take preconceived notions from /such/ others, sorry;
>> I'm picky about my others.
>>
>> Sometimes others put together a coherent set of assumptions.
>> Then within those assumptions they work out a result.
>>
>> No, I can't refute their /reasoning/ by choosing other assumptions.
>>
>> Your modus operandi is to reject (or, more usually, fundamentally
>> misunderstand) the assumptions and then call the reasoning wrong since
>> it doesn't follow from your distorted or replaced version of the
>> assumptions.
>>
>>>> The box where I exactly understand the definition of the problem
>>>> and all of its constraints, so that I'm addressing myself to the
>>>> problem and not something sort of resembling it, and the box in which
>>>> I avoid magical/wishful thinking.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yet only within the conventional analytical framework,
>>> viewing alternative ways of looking at the same things
>>> as inherently erroneous.
>>
>> Using the same same name for two different entities, in the same
>> argument, while pretending they are one entity, is not a "usefully
>> unconventional" mode of operating. So no, I cannot adopt that from you.
>>
>>> If there was such a thing as philosophy of computation
>>> I would be welcomed there for reframing the foundations
>>> of the theory of computation to get rid of the inherent
>>> incoherence that no one else bothers to notice.
>>
>> Even if that somehow were achieved, you would only be choosing
>> different assumptions from which to work, and not challenging
>> any results based on their respective assumptions.
>>
>
> I have shown that the original assumptions are
> incoherent just like
You have not. Only that your understanding is incoherent.
> the set of all sets that are not members of themselves
> is isomorphic to a can of soup that contains itself
> so completely that it has no outside surface.
Unrelated to halting.
>> (And at that leve, you would /know/ this and refrain from
>> insisting that results in a framework of different assumptions
>> were wrongly reasoned because you like some other assumptions.)
>>
>>
>>>> Not an example of diagonalization; the Liar Paradox is not
>>>> a diagonal argument.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It does one and for all prove that the Liar Paradox
>>> is not a proposition. This has never been done before.
>>>
>>>> Diagonal arguemnts patterned after Cantor do not exhibit
>>>> a problem that is analogous to the Liar Paradox.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Liar Paradox constructed with diagonalization L ⊣⊢ ¬Tr(┌L┐)
>>> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liar-paradox/#ExisLiarLikeSent
>>
>> Category inversion problem. Diagonalization may construct a Liar
>> paradox, but that doesn't mean everything made with diagonalization
>> is a Liar Paradox.
>>
>
> No it can make all kinds a semantically unsound expressions
> that no one can understand are semantically unsound because
> thy refuse to pay attention to key details.
Nonsense. It's just a general technique involving a two-dimensional
table in which something interesting develops involving the
diagonal trace.
>> The paper you reference makes it clear that this is a required
>> ingredient. You can't just use the pronoun "this sentence"; that's a
>> self-reference, but not acheived via diagonalization.
>>
>
> Whut ???
>
> In formal languages, self-reference is also very
> easy to come by. Any language capable of expressing
> some basic syntax can generate self-referential
> sentences via so-called diagonalization
> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liar-paradox/#ExisLiarLikeSent
For all the accusations that others are not "paying attention",
apparently you do not see the tiny superscripts that indicate
foonotes:
"The situation with formal languages is actually somewhat subtler than
our brief discussion indicates. In most cases, corner quotes really
indicate formal terms for Gödel numbers of sentences, and are not
genuine quotation marks in the usual sense (e.g., denoting the
expression ‘inside’ them). Hence, the sense in which such languages
have reference to sentences is delicate. Yet with very minimal
resources, syntax can be represented and diagonal sentences
constructed. Hence, there is a sense, albeit subtle, in which such
languages can express self-reference. See the entries on provability
logic and Gödel (the section on the incompleteness theorems), as well
as Heck (2007)."
Nowhere does your paper say that "This sentence is false" is
diagonal by use of the pronoun. You need quoting!
Diagonalization presupposes that there is a table. The table
combines somethng from the rows and columns and only certain
combinations are diagonal.
"This sentence is false" just doesn't have the moving parts
and pieces in it.
You simply don't know how to read papers or think.
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