XPost: comp.theory, sci.math, sci.lang   
   From: tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk   
      
   On 01/12/2025 11:02, Mikko wrote:   
   > olcott kirjoitti 29.11.2025 klo 23.59:   
   >   
   > G := (F ⊬ G) // G says of itself that it is unprovable in F   
   >   
   > With a reasonable type system that is a type error:   
   > - the symbol ⊬ requires a sentence on the right side   
      
   If we're using it in its normal epitheoretic meaning. I think Olcott is   
   using it as a predicative object of a logistic F so it requires a   
   formula on the right? That's not unreasonable since we take   
      
   A |- B   
      
   as a shorthand for   
      
   |-A => |-B   
      
   leaving us with "B is a formula" to which the unary predicate |- may be   
   applied to make a statement.   
      
   It's the epitheoretic "=>" that takes a statement on the right, but   
   clearly it's more complex because systems and lists of statements can be   
   used on the left. Olcott's use of |- as a predicative object of F is   
   clearly awkwardly ambiguous, as tempting as it may be.   
      
   The extra awkward thing here is that F is capable of using |- in its own   
   formulae, making its (normal) use as a unary predicate redundant and   
   perhaps obstructive leaving us with a system whose statements are   
   exactly its formulas unless we have a unary predicative with no visible   
   elements, if it's not nonsense for any other reasons.   
      
   I wonder if that may not be done for some reason. There are lots of   
   reasons to be concerned about it.   
      
   > - the value of the ⊬ operation is a truth value   
      
   /Should/ we take ⊬ to be an operation here? or just a predicative object   
   of F?   
      
   > - the symbol := requires the same type on both sides   
      
   Unless it's an operation (as in, an action to be done to generate   
   sentences/formulas of the system being analysed). When G is an   
   epitheoretic object rather than an object of a definition extension of F   
   then I think it /must/ be such an operation.   
      
      
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   Tristan Wibberley   
      
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