home bbs files messages ]

Forums before death by AOL, social media and spammers... "We can't have nice things"

   sci.physics.relativity      The theory of relativity      225,861 messages   

[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]

   Message 224,616 of 225,861   
   Ross Finlayson to All   
   Re: T-theory A-theory theatheory (8/20)   
   13 Nov 25 18:50:50   
   
   [continued from previous message]   
      
   Thanks ChatGPT. Considering for example "how a skeptical foundations   
   researcher would critique the theory", from what little you know, list   
   that out and attack it, given these sorts ideas held by these other   
   reasoners, how they could attack it.   
      
      
      
   RF — below is a precise, tough-minded, academically realistic critique   
   of the theory from the perspective of skeptical researchers in   
   foundations, based solely on what is present in the excerpts.   
      
   This is what logicians, set theorists, category theorists, and analysts   
   would actually attack, and how they would attack it.   
      
   I will be brutally honest and technically accurate — this is the kind of   
   critique that reviewers, referees, or adversarial seminar audiences   
   would deliver.   
      
   I. CARDINALITY ATTACKS   
   1. “A countable continuum with analytic properties is impossible.”   
      
   A classical analyst or set theorist will immediately say:   
      
   If your underlying set is countable, then any mapping to ℝ is countable,   
   hence cannot be order-complete, hence cannot satisfy the IVT for all   
   continuous functions.   
      
   They will demand:   
   Show a single continuous non-monotone function on your line-reals that   
   satisfies IVT.   
   If you cannot, it collapses to ℚ in structure.   
      
   Attack vector:   
      
   “Your ‘continuum’ is secretly just ℚ with adornments.”   
      
   This is the harshest and most predictable criticism.   
      
   2. “Non-reorderability is incoherent with the definition of bijection.”   
      
   In ZF:   
      
   A bijection is defined extensionally as a set of ordered pairs.   
      
   If your bijection cannot be permuted without losing structure, then it   
   is not a bijection in the ZF sense.   
      
   Attack vector:   
      
   “You are using ‘bijection’ equivocally.   
   Either it is a bijection in the classical sense, in which case   
   diagonalization applies;   
   Or it is a structure-preserving morphism in some enriched category, in   
   which case cardinality claims do not carry over.”   
      
   Mathematicians will seize on this instantly.   
      
   II. LIMITS AND COMPLETENESS ATTACKS   
   3. “Your double-limit construction is underspecified and likely   
   non-convergent.”   
      
   Classical analysts will demand:   
      
   What topology?   
      
   What convergence mode?   
      
   What is the actual object produced by   
   lim⁡d→∞lim⁡n→dn/d   
   lim   
   d→∞   
   ​   
      
   lim   
   n→d   
   ​   
      
   n/d?   
      
   Without a complete metric or order-theoretic argument, they will say:   
      
   “You’re smuggling in completeness through the back door.”   
      
   4. “Without LUB, IVT and FTC cannot hold.”   
      
   ZF-based analysis depends profoundly on:   
      
   Dedekind completeness   
      
   monotone convergence theorem   
      
   nested intervals principle   
      
   If you reject LUB, skeptics will claim:   
      
   “You cannot prove IVT without some equivalent of completeness.   
   Show me the proof.   
   Not heuristics — proof.”   
      
   They will be mercilessly formal here.   
      
   III. MEASURE-THEORY ATTACKS   
   5. “Your measure is not a measure.”   
      
   If you assert:   
      
   boundary duplication,   
      
   measure doubling,   
      
   non-σ-additive behavior,   
      
   Vitali sets having measure 2,   
      
   a measure theorist will immediately say:   
      
   “You’re defining a quasi-measure or content, not a σ-additive measure.   
   Say so explicitly, or the claims are misleading.”   
      
   They will demand:   
      
   σ-additivity proofs   
      
   existence of a σ-algebra   
      
   invariance properties   
      
   countable subadditivity   
      
   Without these, they will say the theory is not measure theory at all.   
      
   6. “Banach–Tarski resolution by fiat is not resolution.”   
      
   If the system rules out paradoxical decompositions by forbidding the   
   operations, skeptics will say:   
      
   “This isn’t a solution.   
   You are restricting the allowed sets so severely that paradoxes cannot form.   
   That’s not deep — it’s just a weaker theory.”   
      
   This is a deadly but common line of attack.   
      
   IV. CATEGORY AND STRUCTURE ATTACKS   
   7. “Your continuum is a dependent structure, not a set.”   
      
   If EF (enumeration), REF (reverse enumeration), and the book-keeper /d   
   are structural, skeptics will say:   
      
   “You’re really defining a category or a presheaf, not a set.   
   Cardinality claims cannot be made in ZF terms.”   
      
   Foundational theorists will challenge the ontological status of the   
   elements.   
      
   8. “Your theory is meta-circular without formal axioms.”   
      
   Without a precise axiomatization, they will say:   
      
   it’s unclear what the base ontology is,   
      
   it’s unclear what inference rules apply,   
      
   it’s impossible to test consistency.   
      
   They will press:   
      
   “Give me an actual axiom system.   
   Until then, this is philosophy, not mathematics.”   
      
   V. SET-THEORY AND LOGIC ATTACKS   
   9. “Diagonalization is structural, not order-dependent.”   
      
   Set theorists will be ferocious here.   
      
   They will argue:   
      
   “The diagonal argument works for any countable sequence of binary strings.   
   The ordering of ℕ is irrelevant.   
   Non-reorderability does not avoid diagonalization unless you deny the   
   underlying set is countable.”   
      
   They will require:   
      
   an explicit demonstration of why   
      
   ann→1−ann   
   a   
   nn   
   ​   
      
   →1−a   
   nn   
   ​   
      
      
   cannot be constructed as a new sequence.   
      
   If you cannot forbid that object from existing, they will say:   
      
   “Your continuum is not closed under definability.”   
      
   Which is fatal.   
      
   10. “If your structure forbids definable sets, it collapses to a   
   substructure of ℚ.”   
      
   This is a classical dilemma:   
      
   If all definable reals must appear as EF(n) for some n,   
      
   and definability is countable,   
   then skeptics will say:   
      
   “Your continuum is isomorphic to the computable reals or a known domain.   
   Nothing new.”   
      
   Unless you supply a demonstrably richer structure, they will say your   
   continuum is:   
      
   countable,   
      
   effective,   
      
   essentially a version of Type-2 computable analysis.   
      
   VI. PHILOSOPHY-OF-MATH ATTACKS   
   11. “This is neo-Pythagoreanism dressed in technical language.”   
      
   Skeptical philosophers will say:   
      
   “You are trying to force the infinite to be finite or quasi-finite   
   because it is spiritually or physically appealing.”   
      
   They’ll classify it with:   
      
   finitism,   
      
   ultra-finitism,   
      
   Aristotelian potentialism,   
      
   constructivist metaphysics.   
      
   Nothing wrong with that, but they will call it:   
      
   “Ideology rather than mathematics.”   
      
   12. “Historiographic framing does not justify mathematical moves.”   
      
   All references to:   
      
   Greek geometry   
      
   German idealism   
      
   Enlightenment/Renaissance cycles   
      
   the ‘wider dialectic’   
   are compelling philosophically,   
      
   but skeptics will say:   
      
   “History is not a proof technique.   
   Stay in the formal system.”   
      
   They will demand formalization independent of historical or   
   philosophical narrative.   
      
   VII. METATHEORETIC ATTACKS   
   13. “You have not shown consistency relative to ZF.”   
      
   This is the nuclear weapon of foundational skepticism.   
      
   They will ask:   
      
   Does your theory interpret PA?   
      
   Does it interpret ZF?   
      
   Does ZF interpret it?   
      
   What are the relative consistency results?   
      
   Until these are established, the theory will be deemed non-rigorous.   
      
   14. “Your system may be inconsistent but too weak to express its own   
   inconsistency.”   
      
   This is a Gödelian critique:   
      
   “If you deny AC, deny completeness, deny certain diagonal constructions,   
   you may have built a system too weak to express paradoxes —   
   but not strong enough to do real mathematics.”   
      
   This is the harshest, but most mathematically pointed critique.   
      
   VIII. SKEPTICAL SUMMARY OF ATTACKS   
      
   A hardened foundations researcher, after reading the excerpt, would say:   
      
   Your continuum collapses to ℚ or the computable reals.   
      
   Your bijection is not a bijection in ZF.   
      
   Your measure is not a measure.   
      
   Your IVT claim requires completeness you haven’t provided.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)   

[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]


(c) 1994,  bbs@darkrealms.ca