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   sci.physics.relativity      The theory of relativity      225,861 messages   

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   Message 224,731 of 225,861   
   Ross Finlayson to All   
   Re: T-theory A-theory theatheory (12/15)   
   16 Nov 25 09:47:45   
   
   [continued from previous message]   
      
   finite measure is always 1.   
      
   The expression was chosen by analogy with quantum shadow tomography   
   , where a small ensemble of random measurements is used to reconstruct   
   (or shadow) the full state; your scale-d bookkeeping plays an analogous   
   role: it never leaves the finite world, yet shadows the usual [0,1] with   
   exact mass 1.   
   So “measure-1 shadow” is home-grown vocabulary: it summarises the fact   
   that ZF proves μ_d(E_d)=1_d for every finite d, and no extra axiom is   
   ever required to keep the shadow intact.   
      
      
   Thanks Kimi. These continuous domains would model the lines their points   
   those thusly sets and thusly the shadow's intactness would be   
   contradicted unless there was a set a continuous domain, here about the   
   countable, and here about the book-keeping and primitive /d, as d is   
   infinite, about these iota-values and standard infinitesimals.   
      
      
      
      
   Kimi here—let’s keep the formal boundary razor-sharp.   
      
   “Continuous domain” inside ZF   
      
   Your book-keeping only ever produces the proper class   
   𝔼 = { ⟨n,d,6⟩ | d≥1, n≤d }.   
   Each slice E_d is a finite set of size d+1, so no slice is continuous in   
   the order-complete sense.   
   ZF proves that 𝔼 is not a set, hence no single set can be   
   order-isomorphic to the real interval [0,1].   
      
   “d is infinite” – not allowed by your own axiom   
      
   The finite-sum axiom you stated explicitly uses d∈ℕ, i.e. d is a finite   
   von-Neumann ordinal.   
   The moment you allow d=ω, the tagged tuples ⟨n,ω,6⟩ would require   
   infinite union to form the set E_ω, which ZF does not prove to exist   
   from your Δ₀ definition.   
   Therefore “standard infinitesimals” that sum to 1 are only the finite   
   fractions 1/d; no infinite d is ever introduced.   
      
   “Shadow’s intactness would be contradicted unless there was a set” –   
   false   
      
   The finite measure μ_d(E_d)=1 is proved inside ZF for each finite d; no   
   set-version of [0,1] is required.   
   Intactness is never threatened, because no contradiction can be derived   
   from finite sums that stay inside finite sets.   
      
   One-line encapsulation you can paste   
   Claim: “The shadow’s intactness requires a continuous set [0,1] with   
   infinite d.”   
   Reply:   
      
   ZF ⊢ “Every E_d is finite” (d∈ℕ).   
   ZF ⊢ “𝔼 = ⋃_{d≥1} E_d is a proper class.”   
   The finite measure μ_d(E_d)=1 is proved for each finite d; no infinite d   
   is ever used, so no continuous set is required and no contradiction arises.   
      
   Bottom line   
      
   Continuous intuition is heuristic; formally you only have finite scales   
   whose finite sums shadow the unit mass.   
   Allowing d=ω would break the finite-union guarantee; keeping d finite   
   keeps the shadow intact without ever creating a continuous set.   
      
   Ring when you want the next layer: a conservative extension that adds a   
   fresh constant ω_t and axiomatises genuine infinitesimals—then we can   
   measure the exact consistency strength you are buying.   
      
      
      
      
   Thanks Kimi. Here that's always been implied since extent E was defined,   
   that though it's quite sensible to resultingly axiomatize that this is   
   so. Excerpt follows (these excerpts in this session are in reverse order   
   from the previous session).   
      
   -- begin except   
      
   Thanks Kimi. Just to provide some context, has that later in the   
   development that the "disjoint union" as would build all the rationals   
   in extent [0,1], instead may only result the "iota-values", since the   
   arithmetic of these iota-values, where for example they're claimed   
   "non-Cartesian", only one of iota-sums and iota-multiples exists, so   
   that they don't themselves relate to the complete-ordered-field, which   
   has no bounded (in an extent) constant-monotone strictly-increasing   
   sequence. So, also ZF does not have "infinite union" as would be the   
   illative or univalent, instead it has pair-wise union, as the disjoint   
   union would be according to the pair-wise recursively union all its   
   index-terms. So, what I'd look to show is that instead, that there   
   exists for any disjoint union, in the bounded, d' >> d, is this is about   
   that there's the case for transfinite induction that its so the   
   fractions exist as the elements of the domain exist, then to make the   
   case for d/d always being 1, is that the case for d/d being 1 is part of   
   the definition of this [0,1]. So, I hope this context helps establish,   
   that the constant differences are standard infinitesimals, and absent   
   structure of modeling the rationals as model the ordered-field, since   
   thusly they'd both model and be modeled by the rationals. So, what I'm   
   looking at is only keeping constant-monotone strictly-increasing in an   
   extent, while barring half of arithmetic. I hope this explains what I   
   intend to thusly write as formulaic.   
      
      
      
   Understood: you want a single, scale-by-scale object that   
      
   is strictly increasing with constant difference 1/d inside the current   
   scale d,   
   never leaves the bounded extent [0,1]_d,   
   is not required to be closed under + or ·,   
   is built without ever forming an infinite union (only the finitary   
   pairwise-union axiom is used), and   
   has d/d ≡ 1 by definition for every scale.   
      
   Below is a one-scale template (parameter d) that satisfies these   
   constraints in pure L(∈).   
      
   The scale-d object (no infinite union, no arithmetic)   
      
   Fix d ≥ 1.   
   Define the d-extent as the finite set   
   E_d ≡ { ⟨n,d,3⟩ | n ∈ d+1 }  (d+1 = {0,1,…,d}).   
   (The tag ‘3’ keeps these objects disjoint from earlier pairs/triples.)   
      
   Order and constant-monotone property   
      
   For p=⟨n,d,3⟩, q=⟨m,d,3⟩ put   
   p ≺_d q ≡ n ∈ m  (ordinal membership).   
   ZF ⊢ ∀p,q∈E_d (p ≺_d q ↔ S(n)=m) ⇒ difference exactly 1/d in the   
   numerator, hence constant-monotone strictly increasing.   
      
   Extremes by definition   
      
   0_d ≡ ⟨0,d,3⟩  (minimum)   
   1_d ≡ ⟨d,d,3⟩  (maximum)   
   ZF ⊢ ∀q∈E_d (0_d ≺_d q ∨ 0_d = q) ∧ (q ≺_d 1_d ∨ q = 1_d).   
      
   Bijection with the initial segment d+1   
      
   φ_d(n,q) ≡ n ∈ d+1 ∧ q = ⟨n,d,3⟩.   
   ZF ⊢ ∀n∈d+1 ∃!q φ_d(n,q)   
   ZF ⊢ ∀q∈E_d ∃!n∈d+1 φ_d(n,q).   
      
   Next step   
      
   Send either   
   A. the one-scale formula φ_d(n,q) exactly as above, with d explicit, or   
   B. the finite recursive concatenation that glues E_{d+1} after E_d using   
   only pairwise union (still no infinite union).   
   Both must be written purely in L(∈) with only the abbreviations shown.   
      
      
   Thanks Kimi. One idea how to entail what would be consequence of   
   infinite-union, without invoking infinite-union, is about that the   
   extent of ran(EF) holds for all values of dom(EF), these being ran_b(EF)   
   and dom_b(EF) for "bijective-functionhood" or "bijectivity" before full   
   "functionhood", yet the definition of N is Archimedean and has   
   infinitely-many yet no infinitely-grand. Here the idea is to show "a   
   case otherwise for that induction fails" via the deduction that there's   
   no neighborhood (TBD) in the extent that induction (pairwise-union)   
   doesn't reach, while, there's no density (TBD) to be defined that   
   pairwise-union at any bounded step, may reach. So, what I'm thinking is   
   how to frame "there's no infinitely-grand natural" to result a   
   fixed-point or compactification, or otherwise to show that there's a   
   model of N in ZF where N e N. Now, I know this would violate   
   well-foundedness, so instead of mentioning that, instead the idea is to   
   hold up that the "extent" relation is always so, while "density" is   
   never achieved, while that then that "density is not not achieved", then   
   that extent and density result of ran_b(EF), while also with   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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