XPost: soc.culture.australian, soc.culture.jewish, soc.culture.austria   
   From: riain@riain.us   
      
   You piss off!   
      
      
      
   "Philip"  wrote in message   
   news:4199daf3$1_3@127.0.0.1...   
   | Please stop posting pro or anti-Jewish rants in the   
   | soc.culture.new-zealand newsgroup. Nobody in there cares. You are   
   | irrelevant. It matters to you and doesn't matter to us.   
   |   
   | Whatever the rights and wrongs of whatever obscure crap you are arguing,   
   | your posts are not interesting, not relevant, not important and not   
   | wanted. Nobody in that newsgroup gives a flying fuck for anything you   
   | have to say.   
   |   
   | So piss off   
   |   
   | Philip   
   |   
   |   
   |   
   | Jim F. wrote:   
   | > "Riain Y. Barton"  wrote in message   
   | > news:sNSdnWpo8rhsMQrcRVn-qg@comcast.com...   
   | >   
   | >>WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH HIS SOURCE -- WHICH IS COMPLETE FICTION?!!!   
   | >>   
   | >>FUCK OFF AND GO KISS THE ARSE OF A NEO-NAZI!   
   | >   
   | >   
   | > More of your wit and charm for which you are most famous for.   
   | >   
   | > In fact, Lenni Brenner's writing is by no means complete   
   | > fiction, and many of his contentions can easily be corroborated   
   | > by other sources, such as my citation of Judge Halevi's decision   
   | > in the case of The Attorney General v. Malkiel Grünwald, in which   
   | > the Israeli government prosecuted  Grünwald for libel because   
   | > he had publicly accused Kastner of having collaborated with   
   | > the Nazis.  The reason the government chose to prosecute   
   | > Grünwald  was because Kastner was at that   
   | > time a spokesman for the Ministry for Trade and Industry for   
   | > David Ben Gurion's government, and was indeed a   
   | > friend of Ben Gurion.  As it so happened not only   
   | > did the Israeli government lose its case against   
   | > Grünwald but many of the charges that Grünwald   
   | > had made against Kastner were found to be   
   | > well-grounded, as affirmed by Judge Halevi in   
   | > his ruling.   
   | >   
   | > This sort of thing shows up the limitations of your   
   | > way of engaging neo-Nazis, Holocaust deniers and   
   | > others like ilk.  While, perhaps 90-95% of these   
   | > folk are little more than illiterate morons, the   
   | > other remaining 5-10% include some fairly   
   | > clever folk, who are often quite well-versed in the history   
   | > of WW II and often are quite familiar with the scholarly   
   | > literature concerning that period.  You are not going   
   | > to get very far with those kinds of people by denying   
   | > events and facts that can be corroborated by   
   | > respectable scholarly sources.  The fact is there were   
   | > Jews who collaborated with the Nazis during WW II   
   | > as there were all sorts of other people who did likewise.   
   | > And they acted from all sorts of motives, some fairly   
   | > honorable, and others from clearly less than honorable   
   | > reasons.  Many people collaborated in the hope that   
   | > the Nazis would spare their lives and the lives of their   
   | > families.  Many of the local Jewish leaders collaborated   
   | > in the hope that the Nazis would go easier on their   
   | > communities.  After all, that was the way that Jews   
   | > had often dealt with anti-Semites in the past and they   
   | > saw no reason why what had worked with earlier   
   | > anti-Semites should not work with the Nazis. In   
   | > this, their evaluations of the Nazis turned out to   
   | > be tragically wrong.   
   | >   
   | > In the case of Dr. Kastner, he apparently started   
   | > out with good intentions.  He hoped to save at   
   | > least a portion of the Hungarian Jewish community,   
   | > and barring that, at least the most prominent   
   | > of Hungarian Jews.  In return, he promised   
   | > Eichmann and other Nazi officials that he and   
   | > the other Zionist leaders in Hungary would   
   | > work to ensure that peace and order was   
   | > maintained both in the Jewish ghettos and   
   | > in the concentration camps - the Nazis,   
   | > at that time, fearing Jewish uprisings such   
   | > as had occured in Poland in the Warsaw Ghetto.   
   | >   
   | > Since at this point in the war, the Germans   
   | > were running short on manpower, they had   
   | > good reason to fear the outbreaks of unrest   
   | > among Hungarian Jews, such as had occured   
   | > in Poland where the Warsaw Ghetto uprising   
   | > took nearly a month to suppress and required   
   | > the diversion of thousands of German soldiers   
   | > from the front.  As it so happens, Dr. Kastner   
   | > was true to his word, and he made sure   
   | > that the truth about the Nazis' extermination of   
   | > the Jews did not become known to the Jews   
   | > of Hungary.  Thus, Dr. Kastner did indeed do   
   | > his part to ensure that there would be no   
   | > Jewish revolts in Hungary, no equivalents   
   | > to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising as had   
   | > occured in Poland. In exchange for this,   
   | > Dr. Kastner was permited to save the   
   | > lives of several thousand Hungarian Jews   
   | > including local notables and a number of   
   | > Zionist activists.  Given the tenousness   
   | > of the Germans' control over Hungary   
   | > at that time, that was indeed quite a   
   | > bad bargain for Dr. Kastner to have   
   | > entered into.   
   | >   
   | > As I said before, Kastner seems to have   
   | > originally started out with good intentions,   
   | > however, Eichmann and other Nazi officials   
   | > found that they could appeal to Kastner's   
   | > vanity, since Kastner seems to have   
   | > very much thought of himself as a   
   | > "rescuer of Jews."  Eichmann, later on,   
   | > claimed to have seen in Kastner, a man   
   | > very much like himself.   
   | >   
   | > As Hannah Arendt put it, concerning Eichmann and   
   | > Kastner, in *Eichmann in   
   | > Jerusalem* (NY: Pengiuin, 1964) pp.41-2 :   
   | >   
   | > "His (referring to Eichmann) first personal contacts with Jewish   
   | > functionaries, all of them   
   | > well-known Zionists of long standing, were thoroughly satisfactory.   
   | > The reason he became so fascinated by the "Jewish question," he   
   | > explained, was his own "idealism"; these Jews, unlike the   
   | > Assimilationists, whom he always despised, and unlike Orthodox   
   | > Jews, who bored him, were "idealists," like him.  An "idealist,"   
   | > according to Eichmann's notions, was not merely a man who believed   
   | > in an "idea" is someone who did not steal or accept bribes, though these   
   | > qualifications were indispensable.  An "idealist was a man who lived   
   | > for his idea - hence he could not be a businessman - and who was   
   | > prepared to sacrifice everything and, especially, everybody.  When   
   | > he said in his police examination that he would have sent his own   
   | > father to his death if that had been required, he did not mean merely   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)