From: charlesellson@btinternet.com   
      
   On Sat, 4 Dec 2021 21:35:32 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"   
    wrote:   
      
   >On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 at 21:40:22, Charles Ellson   
   > wrote (my responses usually follow points   
   >raised):   
   >>On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 13:39:52 +0100, john   
   >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>On 03/12/2021 11:38, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:   
   >>>> If someone was killed in action (primarily during the WWs, though   
   >>>> presumably other conflicts too), would I find their death in   
   >>>> FreeBMD/ONS, recorded under where they normally lived?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Or, to put it another way, if I _do_ find such an entry, do I assume   
   >>>> s/he was _not_ killed in action (though it could be due to a bomb)?   
   >[]   
   >>If they died abroad (i.e. furth of the UK) then they would not be   
   >>registered "as usual" as their death would not have been within a   
   >>relevant jurisdiction. If the death was notified to a relevant body   
   >>(such as the service they were in or a consulate/embassy) then it   
   >>should be recorded in one of the sets of registers in which foreign,   
   >>military and other miscellaneous deaths were recorded. A few   
   >   
   >That's more or less what I was wondering: leaving out the special cases   
   >of where someone was brought home injured, or their body was repatriated   
   >- I was thinking mostly of those killed and buried (or worse) abroad.   
   >   
   >So their death would be recorded _only_ in some register; presumably   
   >these registers were much bigger during a war.   
   >   
   Off the top of my head :-   
   Killed or died on the battlefield or in a military field hospital -   
   recorded in service deaths registers _if_ the information was fed   
   back.   
   Died (WW1) in a foreign civilian hospital - recorded in those   
   countries' death registers.   
   Not forgetting that the force they were serving in should have some   
   record(s) of the death or being missing.   
      
   >And conversely, if someone is recorded in a normal (FreeBMD/GRO) area,   
   >it means on the whole they _didn't_ die abroad (including in action).   
   >[]   
   Yes, short of oddities such as e.g. being washed up on the beach or   
   found dead on a boat arriving in port. IIRC where the actual place of   
   death was unknown then the registration defaulted to where the body   
   was found. (A more modern version to compare with could be e.g.   
   someone found dead on the London to Glasgow sleeper after arrival with   
   no certainty of where on the journey they expired).   
      
   There can be a hint if a possible death index match is for a place   
   away from someone's home area but where a military hospital was   
   located. One of my relatives died in Stoke Mandeville Hospital which   
   explained why he was buried in his home parish but had no matching   
   entry in the Scottish or Service indexes.   
      
   >>Death can be presumed without the standard 7 year wait if there was an   
   >>event in which it would be unreasonable not to argue against it, e.g.   
   >>"X boarded HMS Whatever which was subsequently seen/known to have sunk   
   >>with no known survivors". In a few odd cases that has resulted in   
   >>people "coming back from the dead" due to e.g. erroneous crew lists,   
   >>being rescued by the other side etc.   
   >   
   >Interesting!   
   >   
   >If the standard 7 year wait _is_ invoked - presumably meaning just a   
   >missing person really, especially _not_ in wartime - where is the   
   >"death" recorded?   
   >>   
   If the result of a court declaration then it should be in the court   
   records. In Scotland possibly resulting in an entry in the NRS index;   
   in England and Wales maybe involving a search through unindexed court   
   records. In modern times, a death register entry might in practice be   
   unavoidable; further back (20/30+ years?) ISTR there was no   
   arrangement for recording such a death in Scottish death records but   
   in England and Wales a death register entry would be caused. I am not   
   sure exactly which registrar is supposed to be informed but the first   
   place I would consider is where the person was last seen alive   
   followed possibly by the one for the district where the relevant court   
   is located. The 7 year presumption won't necessarily have caused any   
   records - in past times a surviving spouse would have been more or   
   less free to re-marry after seven years simply by declaring they had   
   not seen their partner since the relevant date (I have seen marriage   
   register entries with such recorded). Marriages now require more proof   
   of the parties' assorted statuses (nationality, divorce, widowhood   
   etc.) but if a surviving spouse (or their heirs) have no need for the   
   death to be presumed then again there might be no record. OTOH the   
   occasional older will index entry might mention "last seen alive...."   
   at various times after the presumed event depending on when dispersal   
   of an estate is required; that could be when the missing person   
   themselves gets an inheritance which then has to be passed on to their   
   heirs.   
      
   >>> From a brief search, you might find something useful in   
   >[]   
   >Thanks - useful list tagged as keep, for reference.   
   >   
   >FWIW: this arose because a friend had said something like he thought his   
   >dad's dad died in WW1, and I was wondering how to check that - if I   
   >found him in a normal FreeBMD/GRO hit, presumably he _wasn't_ (I   
   >didn't), and I didn't have a good list of where to look for military   
   >deaths. I subsequently decided he didn't die during WW1 anyway, as my   
   >friend's dad was born 1920/7/7! (I did find a possible death for his   
   >granddad in 194x, so during WW2, though presumably as I found that in   
   >FreeBMD/GRO, not in action.)   
      
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