From: charlesellson@btinternet.com   
      
   On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 00:03:54 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"   
    wrote:   
      
   >On 2025/9/26 21:41:47, Charles Ellson wrote:   
   >> On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:01:10 +0100, Charles Ellson   
   >>  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2025 16:10:12 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"   
   >>>  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On 2025/9/25 12:47:25, Jenny M Benson wrote:   
   >>>>> On 25/09/2025 11:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:   
   >>>>>> The preprinted forms for marriage bonds and allegations have this text:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> .. made oath as follows (to wit) That he is of the age of [	] Years and   
   >>>>>> upwards, and a [	] and intends to marry [	] of the Parish of [	] in the   
   >>>>>> County of [	] and Diocese of [		] aged [	] Years and upwards ...   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> (or variations thereon). [The second box might be filled in with e. g.   
   >>>>>> Bachelor, Widower; the long one with name of diocese Spinster. They   
   >>>>>> aren't really boxes, just gaps.]   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Can anyone explain the "Years and upwards" wording?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Isn't is just another way of saying "at least n years old"?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>> Yes, but why say "at least 23" (for example)? If the person is unsure of   
   >>>> his (or her) age, and just wants to swear he (or she) is over the age of   
   >>>> majority, say 21 (and I've seen enough who do say that when it isn't   
   >>>> true!), but if he knows, why the "and upwards"?   
   >>>>   
   >>> The simple description of "x years" only applies for one year. The   
   >>> general legal requirements concerning age deal with being at least or   
   >>> no more than x years old thus the verbose wording which in this case   
   >   
   >no more than? A _maximum_ age? First I've heard of that, at least in the   
   >context of marriage.   
   >   
   Until 1929 in England and Wales, to marry you had to be 14 or more if   
   male, 12 or more if female. For parents to be able to stick their oar   
   in you had to be no more than 21. Until both of the couple were 21 or   
   more there were other parties involved in the marriage who weren't all   
   counting in the same direction IYSWIM.   
   >   
   >>> dealt with a person who had reached their twenty-first birhday which   
   >>> qualified them to marry without general hindrance from that day   
   >>> onward. The form would also have allowed the age of a minor to be   
   >>> entered; in some cases (not limited to marriage) that could expand to   
   >>> e.g. "of x years or and less than y years"   
   >>>   
   >> "of x years and less than y years"   
   >>   
   >>> or similar.   
   >   
   >(I have indeed seen a minor mentioned; that form had hand-annotated that   
   >the father was also present, and approved.) But the words "Years and   
   >upwards" are preprinted on the form, with no space for "and less than".   
   >   
   The pre-GRO paperwork did not have every possible description featured   
   in the printing and was not all exactly the same unlike the legislated   
   formats for current registrations.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
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