From: charlesellson@btinternet.com   
      
   On Sun, 28 Sep 2025 07:41:00 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"   
    wrote:   
      
   >On 2025/9/28 1:10:26, Charles Ellson wrote:   
   >> On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 00:03:54 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"   
   >>  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 2025/9/26 21:41:47, Charles Ellson wrote:   
   >>>> On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:01:10 +0100, Charles Ellson   
   >>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2025 16:10:12 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"   
   >>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On 2025/9/25 12:47:25, Jenny M Benson wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On 25/09/2025 11:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> The preprinted forms for marriage bonds and allegations have this   
   text:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> .. made oath as follows (to wit) That he is of the age of [	] Years   
   and   
   >>>>>>>> upwards, and a [	] and intends to marry [	] of the Parish of [	] in   
   the   
   >>>>>>>> County of [	] and Diocese of [		] aged [	] Years and upwards ...   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> (or variations thereon). [The second box might be filled in with e. g.   
   >>>>>>>> Bachelor, Widower; the long one with name of diocese Spinster. They   
   >>>>>>>> aren't really boxes, just gaps.]   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Can anyone explain the "Years and upwards" wording?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Isn't is just another way of saying "at least n years old"?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Yes, but why say "at least 23" (for example)? If the person is unsure of   
   >>>>>> his (or her) age, and just wants to swear he (or she) is over the age of   
   >>>>>> majority, say 21 (and I've seen enough who do say that when it isn't   
   >>>>>> true!), but if he knows, why the "and upwards"?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>> The simple description of "x years" only applies for one year. The   
   >>>>> general legal requirements concerning age deal with being at least or   
   >>>>> no more than x years old thus the verbose wording which in this case   
   >>>   
   >>> no more than? A _maximum_ age? First I've heard of that, at least in the   
   >>> context of marriage.   
   >>>   
   >> Until 1929 in England and Wales, to marry you had to be 14 or more if   
   >> male, 12 or more if female. For parents to be able to stick their oar   
   >> in you had to be no more than 21. Until both of the couple were 21 or   
   >> more there were other parties involved in the marriage who weren't all   
   >   
   >I was aware of those limits; I was quite surprised when I first   
   >discovered that it wasn't raised from 14/12 until as recently as 1929.   
   >Although in my own tree I've found very few - none I think - under 16,   
   >and only a handful 16 or 17 (I'd expected more).   
   >   
   I have found a couple of 15s in England and Wales but only recorded as   
   minors. Mo brides under 15 so far.   
      
   >> counting in the same direction IYSWIM.   
   >   
   >I don't SWYM.   
   >   
   >I was puzzled by charlesellson's use of the words "no more than",   
   >implying that there was something for which a _maximum_ age existed; I   
   >was (and still am) unaware of any maxima, at least relating to marriage.   
   >   
   21 yeara minus a day was the maximum age at which you were liable to   
   have your marital plans spoiled by an objecting parent or guardian.   
   Before you got to the stage of registering the marriage there were   
   preceding documented hurdles to be overcome such as banns, marriade   
   bonds and licences (and also not being dragged home by Dad and/or his   
   servants).   
      
   >(Very few altogether, even now: sometimes maxima for working age,   
   >especially in the military, and I think there's a maximum age for   
   >_compulsory_ jury service - and others where extra action has to be   
   >_taken_ to continue, such as in UK driving licences have to be _renewed_   
   >every 3 years from 70.)   
   >   
   Your age can also affect what vehicles you are allowed to drive. You   
   have to be no more than 70 to drive heavier vehicles (mainly C1 for   
   this example) without proof of fitness if you were previously entitled   
   to drive them without proof of fitness. Otherwise the main limits will   
   be the minima.   
      
   >>>   
   >>>>> dealt with a person who had reached their twenty-first birhday which   
   >>>>> qualified them to marry without general hindrance from that day   
   >>>>> onward. The form would also have allowed the age of a minor to be   
   >>>>> entered; in some cases (not limited to marriage) that could expand to   
   >>>>> e.g. "of x years or and less than y years"   
   >>>>>   
   >>>> "of x years and less than y years"   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> or similar.   
   >>>   
   >>> (I have indeed seen a minor mentioned; that form had hand-annotated that   
   >>> the father was also present, and approved.) But the words "Years and   
   >>> upwards" are preprinted on the form, with no space for "and less than".   
   >>>   
   >> The pre-GRO paperwork did not have every possible description featured   
   >> in the printing and was not all exactly the same unlike the legislated   
   >> formats for current registrations.   
   >Yes, but the "and upwards" form (which sounds odd in today's English -   
   >I'd expect "or above" or "or more" after, or "at least" before) form   
   >seems to have been common on printed forms.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)