From: G6JPG@255soft.uk   
      
   On 2025/9/28 1:10:26, Charles Ellson wrote:   
   > On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 00:03:54 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"   
   >  wrote:   
   >   
   >> On 2025/9/26 21:41:47, Charles Ellson wrote:   
   >>> On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:01:10 +0100, Charles Ellson   
   >>>  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2025 16:10:12 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"   
   >>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On 2025/9/25 12:47:25, Jenny M Benson wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 25/09/2025 11:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:   
   >>>>>>> The preprinted forms for marriage bonds and allegations have this text:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> .. made oath as follows (to wit) That he is of the age of [	] Years and   
   >>>>>>> upwards, and a [	] and intends to marry [	] of the Parish of [	] in the   
   >>>>>>> County of [	] and Diocese of [		] aged [	] Years and upwards ...   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> (or variations thereon). [The second box might be filled in with e. g.   
   >>>>>>> Bachelor, Widower; the long one with name of diocese Spinster. They   
   >>>>>>> aren't really boxes, just gaps.]   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Can anyone explain the "Years and upwards" wording?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Isn't is just another way of saying "at least n years old"?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>> Yes, but why say "at least 23" (for example)? If the person is unsure of   
   >>>>> his (or her) age, and just wants to swear he (or she) is over the age of   
   >>>>> majority, say 21 (and I've seen enough who do say that when it isn't   
   >>>>> true!), but if he knows, why the "and upwards"?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>> The simple description of "x years" only applies for one year. The   
   >>>> general legal requirements concerning age deal with being at least or   
   >>>> no more than x years old thus the verbose wording which in this case   
   >>   
   >> no more than? A _maximum_ age? First I've heard of that, at least in the   
   >> context of marriage.   
   >>   
   > Until 1929 in England and Wales, to marry you had to be 14 or more if   
   > male, 12 or more if female. For parents to be able to stick their oar   
   > in you had to be no more than 21. Until both of the couple were 21 or   
   > more there were other parties involved in the marriage who weren't all   
      
   I was aware of those limits; I was quite surprised when I first   
   discovered that it wasn't raised from 14/12 until as recently as 1929.   
   Although in my own tree I've found very few - none I think - under 16,   
   and only a handful 16 or 17 (I'd expected more).   
      
   > counting in the same direction IYSWIM.   
      
   I don't SWYM.   
      
   I was puzzled by charlesellson's use of the words "no more than",   
   implying that there was something for which a _maximum_ age existed; I   
   was (and still am) unaware of any maxima, at least relating to marriage.   
   (Very few altogether, even now: sometimes maxima for working age,   
   especially in the military, and I think there's a maximum age for   
   _compulsory_ jury service - and others where extra action has to be   
   _taken_ to continue, such as in UK driving licences have to be _renewed_   
   every 3 years from 70.)   
      
   >>   
   >>>> dealt with a person who had reached their twenty-first birhday which   
   >>>> qualified them to marry without general hindrance from that day   
   >>>> onward. The form would also have allowed the age of a minor to be   
   >>>> entered; in some cases (not limited to marriage) that could expand to   
   >>>> e.g. "of x years or and less than y years"   
   >>>>   
   >>> "of x years and less than y years"   
   >>>   
   >>>> or similar.   
   >>   
   >> (I have indeed seen a minor mentioned; that form had hand-annotated that   
   >> the father was also present, and approved.) But the words "Years and   
   >> upwards" are preprinted on the form, with no space for "and less than".   
   >>   
   > The pre-GRO paperwork did not have every possible description featured   
   > in the printing and was not all exactly the same unlike the legislated   
   > formats for current registrations.   
   Yes, but the "and upwards" form (which sounds odd in today's English -   
   I'd expect "or above" or "or more" after, or "at least" before) form   
   seems to have been common on printed forms.   
      
      
   --   
   J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf   
      
   Eddie [Waring] underook elocution lessons in Leeds. After four weeks he   
   was asked to leave - all members in his class had begun to speak like him.   
   Stuart Hall, RT 7-13 August 2010   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)