XPost: soc.culture.korean, misc.education   
   From: junkmail@moreira.mv.com   
      
   Said  uctt@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Daniel Paik) :   
      
   >In article <400ddebd.2482359@news.mv.net>,   
      
   >ok.  i guess my use of the word "crap" got your panties in a bunch.   
      
   Let me put it this way. I'm an industry man and a teacher of computer   
   science, and I strongly believe there's no such a thing as "crap" when   
   it comes to learning. Calling anything learnable "crap" is a bright   
   red light to me.   
      
   >i don't mean that all of the classes that i took were useless or that they   
   should not   
   >have been part of the computer science curriculum.  i'm merely saying   
   this...let's say   
   >that the coursework for undergraduate computer science at a school like   
   berkeley (b/c   
   >that's where i went) is represented as a circle.  grad school and PhD work is   
   a bigger   
   >circle (that includes the undergrad circle).  my interest in computer science   
   can be   
   >represented in another circle that has some overlap but some sections that do   
   not   
   >overlap.   
      
   But then that "crap" label is sorely misapplied. As I said, it's a   
   question of what you think of the stuff vis-a-vis your interest, and   
   not really in relation to the real world. Furthermore, Ph.D. is a   
   quite different issue altogether, because its objective is yet   
   different.   
      
   >i'm saying that for a guy like me, it was very difficult for me to apply   
   myself in   
   >learning those sections that i was not interested in.  it does not mean that   
   those   
   >sections are useless b/c for the other CS major next to me, he may have been   
   very   
   >interested in that.   
      
   But this is a problem within yourself, right ? Nothing to do with the   
   material. I find not a small dose of arrogance in coming to a college   
   and demanding to be taught only those things you're interested in ! A   
   student doesn't have enough material to judge what's important or not,   
   and when importance and personal judgement conflict, it should be up   
   to personal judgement to change.   
      
   >quantum physics is also interesting to those who work in that field but it   
   doesn't make   
   >me want to learn it.   
      
   Yet, if you join a computer science course, you cannot fault it for   
   teaching computer science.   
      
   >i did well in my classes that had more to do with software (OS design,   
   compilers, etc.)   
   >b/c i was somewhat interested in the way those applications were designed.  i   
   did not   
   >do very well in hardware classes because i simply was not interested in it.    
   theory was   
   >just plain boring to me.   
      
   But there's little difference today between hardware and software.   
   Write it in C, call it "software"; write it in HDL, call it   
   "hardware". Both worlds require the same basic culture. And I would   
   risk to say that if you don't understand Abstract Machines you can't   
   really grasp what goes on with the design of a compiler, and if you   
   don't know your fair amount of hardware and architecture you can't   
   really grasp what designing an OS is all about. These are not   
   "applications", they are basic software that sit on top of a fair   
   amount of mathematics and of hardware interactions and interfacing.   
      
   >of course a degree is not a necessity to make money.  but the easiest path in   
   life to   
   >make a decent living is to do your homework in high school, get decent   
   grades, go to a   
   >good college, and get a job.  you're fighting an uphill battle if you drop   
   out of high   
   >school and try to find a job and work hard.  of course it can be done.   
      
   Ah, but this gets into a bit of hypocrisy, no ? Yes, a lot of people   
   out there require college degrees. But still, many don't require   
   computer science degrees. The reason why people want computer   
   professionals with a college degree is clear, it's about that   
   mind-bending that students go through when in college: it's not about   
   "do your homework and get decent grades", it's not just about "go to   
   college" - it's about, well, GO TO COLLEGE AND LEARN HOW TO THINK LIKE   
   A COLLEGE GRAD. Now, computer science, like engineering, like physics,   
   is a rather specialized course, where you're there not only to learn   
   how to think like a college grad, but to learn how to think and behave   
   like a computer science major. And that's one step beyond merely   
   having a college degree. When companies want someone with a computer   
   science degree, they often say also "mathematics" or "electrical   
   engineering" or some other degree that's equally mathematically   
   intense - BECAUSE WHAT THEY'RE OFTEN LOOKING FOR IS THAT MATHEMATICAL   
   FRAME OF MIND. So, what colleges of computer science try to do is not   
   to make you just like a typical college grad, heck, you could do a   
   Political Science or a Literature course and come out better on that   
   account. What that computer science course is trying to do is to   
   instill into you that intense dose of mathematical thinking so that   
   you get to think and act like a computer SCIENCE major, not just like   
   a computer major. The name of the course, mind you, isn't just   
   "computer", it's Computer SCIENCE - and there's a reason for that.   
      
   So, if you go into a computer science course telling yourself, well,   
   "I'm here to do my homework and get my degree", you're copping out of   
   the major objectives of the computer science course. You're telling   
   yourself, pretty much, that you're going there just for the degree and   
   screw the course; and that attitude of course will demean most of the   
   course into irrelevancy, because, what do you know, maybe you're not   
   really there to become a computer science major ? And then you   
   criticize the course for being too sciency for your interest ? So, why   
   didn't you do some other college course, if the issue was just to get   
   a degree and find a job ?   
      
   >i forced myself to do some of those classes b/c i wanted to graduate.  if it   
   were my   
   >choice i would not have done some of them b/c i knew i would not be working   
   in those   
   >fields.  my interests lie in software development and all of the classes i   
   took taught   
   >me to think.  there were no "programming" classes because that's not what a   
   college CS   
   >education is about.  that's what a trade school is about.   
      
   Well, it depends on what you call software development. A lot of   
   software development doesn't need a college degree, and a whole lot   
   more doesn't need a computer science course. For example, I worked in   
   pretty sophisticated software writing all my professional life, and   
   I'm an Electrical Engineer: my first computer science degree was   
   earned when I was 44 years old.   
      
   Would you go into an electrical engineering course because you like to   
   tinker with electricity and want to be an electrician ? I hope not,   
   that would be a gross waste of time and money. Likewise, computer   
   science courses are not about software development, they're about,   
   well, computer SCIENCE - and that includes software development to the   
   extent that there's SCIENCE in it. So, writing commercial or web   
      
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