From: SolomonW@citi.com   
      
   On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 18:18:58 +0100, The True Doctor wrote:   
      
   > On 14/09/2020 09:17, SolomonW wrote:   
   >> On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:13:02 +0100, The True Doctor wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 12/09/2020 23:32, SolomonW wrote:   
   >>>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 13:55:24 +0100, The True Doctor wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On 12/09/2020 09:43, SolomonW wrote:   
   >>>>>>> Almost   
   >>>>>>> everyone in the ancient world was literate,   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> I doubt it as late as 1917, most Russians were illiterate   
   >>>>>>     . Plus also   
   >>>>>> there are degrees of literacy.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> We are not talking about 20th century Russian peasants. We are talking   
   >>>>> about the civilized socialites of over 2000 years ago who built schools   
   >>>>> and synagogues to educate their children to read and write.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Are you talking of the elite or everyone?   
   >>>>   
   >>>   
   >>> I am talking about all male citizens being taught by the state to read   
   >>> and write in exchange for 2 years of national service when they   
   >>> graduated. Read Plato and Xenophon.   
   >>   
   >> This was Greece, not sure of other places. I have never heard of such a   
   >> thing in other countries.   
   >>   
   >>> Every city state educated its   
   >>> citizens at its own expense irrespective of class.   
   >>   
   >> Citizens only made up a small percentage.   
   >>   
   >   
   > Nonsense. Citizens were 80% including men and women weather or not they   
   > were in bondage, and since hereditary bondage was outlawed by Solon all   
   > children were free citizens and had the right to free state education.   
      
      
      
   In Athens, there were more non-citizens than citizens. There were almost   
   as many slaves as citizens, so citizens would probably be about 30%. I am   
   not sure about other cities, but I suspect citizen would make a higher   
   percentage. Of course, males would be half.   
      
      
   >   
   > Those who were foreigners learned to read and write in their own cities.   
      
   Indeed.   
      
      
      
   >   
   >>> If women or   
   >>> foreigners wanted to be educated, for example Sappho, then their   
   >>> families would have to pay for it,   
   >>   
   >> So presumably few of these were educated.   
   >>   
   >   
   > Few were educated from foreign cities because they were grown adults who   
   > would have been educated in their original city of origin as children.   
      
      
   A few would be.   
      
      
   >   
   >>> but all men were educated at the   
   >>> state's expense, because those were the people that mattered since they   
   >>> were expected to defend it,   
   >>   
   >> Probably male citizens.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>> and a soldier has to be able to read and   
   >>> write in order to follow orders and be promoted through the ranks to   
   >>> make the best general. The more people who are educated, the better the   
   >>> leaders.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> Many soldiers have no plans to become generals or leaders.   
   >>   
   >   
   > That's irrelevant. The army required them to be officers regardless of   
   > what they wanted.   
      
   Not everyone in the army is a star.   
      
      
   >  Alcibiades was a nobody when Socrates saved his life   
   > before he was promoted though the ranks.   
      
   I was talking of soldiers who could not read.   
      
      
   >   
   >>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> and the only thing stopping   
   >>>>>>> people from learning to read and write was the lack of spectacles for   
   >>>>>>> people who might have needed them.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Cost of books too?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> They used wax tablets to write on as the teacher deictated or wrote on a   
   >>>>> board. The remains of such tablets have been found a Hadrian's Wall   
   >>>>> bearing the drafts of letters the soldiers sent to their families.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Limited access to books   
   >>   
   >> No comment to this I notice. If literacy was common, why did Christians and   
   >> Jews have readers who read books to the public?   
   >>   
   >   
   > An entire publishing industry existed at the time. That's why ancient   
   > texts survived today because thousands of copies of each existed. Paying   
   > to listen to someone read their book was cheaper than buying the book   
   > itself, and they probably had the book for sale on the side after the   
   > actual reading, the same as Charles Dickens did.   
      
   When Christians and Jews go to bible reading, they are not coming to buy   
   books. Check out how long a scribe takes to write a bible; this is why the   
   cost of such books before printing was huge.   
      
      
   >   
   >>   
   >>> and no newspapers andmuch of these letters here   
   >>>> were written by scribes.   
   >>>   
   >>> Rubbish. They were found at the Wall itself and you don't have scribes   
   >>> going around writing letters for other people on the front line. The   
   >>> letters were written by individual soldiers and were written in   
   >>> different hands.   
   >>>   
   >>> Just look at how the laws of Athens were written on boards on the front   
   >>> to the courthouse building so that everyone would know what they were,   
   >>> and people would not be unfairly prosecuted under laws which did not   
   >>> exist. See Andocides' On the Mysteries.   
   >>   
   >> A small percentage could do all this.   
   >>   
   >   
   > No. Everyone had to because all citizens were expected to act as jurors.   
      
      
      
   Even today, when literacy is much more critical, few jurisdictions allow   
   exemption from jury duty for illiteracy.  Interestingly I just saw that my   
   state does.   
      
      
      
      
   >   
   >>   
   >> In ancient Rome, why if literacy was so common were scribes considered so   
   >> important?   
   >   
   > Scribes were the equivalent of secretaries and typists today. No one   
   > ever implied that the CEO or manager dictating a letter was unable to   
   > read and write.   
      
      
   I was talking of scribes that serviced the ordinary people.   
      
      
      
   >   
   >>   
   >> Check here please   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3huswa/how_li   
   erate_was_the_average_roman_citizen_did/   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
      
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