XPost: alt.philosophy, alt.atheism, alt.agnosticism
From: chumley702@chartermi.net
"brian fletcher" wrote in message
news:bQxhj.1669$421.907@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Miller" wrote in message
> news:Plwhj.126$Px.33@newsfe05.lga...
>>
>> "brian fletcher" wrote in message
>> news:Dcehj.1298$421.145@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote in message
>>> news:47855c95$0$3431$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> Up to now, religions have owned the immortality
>>>> promise. Their primary method, believe X (varies
>>>> from religion to religion) and get it (or at least
>>>> maximize your chances of getting it), disbelieve
>>>> or doubt X, and either don't get it -or- get it in
>>>> a very unpleasant way -or- get a chance to get
>>>> it, later, if you pass some post-death test.
>>>>
>>>> What if everyone gets it, and what if immortality
>>>> is simply another natural part of a mysterious
>>>> natural adventure? What if immortality isn't neces-
>>>> sarily better or worse, but instead, is simply a
>>>> different naturalistic experience?
>>>>
>>>> Certainly, selling immortality as the ultimate drug,
>>>> the ultimate high, the unltimate in pleasure, if you
>>>> jump through the 'right' religion's hoops, that has
>>>> enormous appeal. The threat side, not so much.
>>>>
>>>> But, is religion really necessary for immortality?
>>>> What -if- immortality is as natural as any other
>>>> event in this particular naturalistic realm we are
>>>> familiar with, and it's not earned, and no one is
>>>> excluded from it, and everyone and everything
>>>> is a part of it? What if all that is natural is part
>>>> of some naturalistic realm in which a continua-
>>>> tion of possibilities is the ultimate reality?
>>>>
>>>> Just a thought, for those of you who, like me,
>>>> find the immortality promise of religion to be
>>>> its most seductive feature, but who have been
>>>> taught that if you disbelieve or doubt, you either
>>>> get eliminated from existence forever, judged
>>>> and punished and eliminated from existence
>>>> forever, or judged and punished forever.
>>>>
>>>> A naturalistic immortality, in my view, offers
>>>> a far more attractive alternative to religion than
>>>> has been posited 'til now, not only by religions
>>>> and their followers which equate naturalism
>>>> with oblivion, but also by disbelievers and
>>>> doubters who've bought into the religious argu-
>>>> ment that's it's their way -or- no way, dismis-
>>>> sing any possibility that a naturalistic immor-
>>>> tality is even possible.
>>>>
>>>> Just saying, within the unknown realm of the
>>>> totality of that which is natural, pondering a
>>>> naturalistic immortality is a potentially power-
>>>> ful concept, and worthy of consideration until
>>>> or unless the totality of naturalism is known
>>>> to exclude the possibility of *any* immortality.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What you say makes perfect sense, and is something I started to
>>> investigate thirty about years ago, always previously, having a similar
>>> view to you.
>>>
>>> Basically this is what I discovered.(With the emphasis on "I")
>>>
>>> The position we each take up life by life is based on our accumulated
>>> experiences.A process of graduation.
>>>
>>> The religious 'authors' as opposed to followers, cover this with their
>>> parables and directives, such as "as ye sow also shall you reap" which,
>>> at first appears to contradict "the sins of the fathers will be
>>> revisited on the sixth and seventh generation". Of course the laws of
>>> karma are familiar to a large % of the world population.
>>>
>>> The religions were and are a batch of guidelines to help those who are
>>> at the stage where need such direction. Where they have not yet matured
>>> enough to "stand alone".
>>>
>>> Like children, they sometimes need to be motivated by fear of
>>> consequence. Don't kill or you will be killed etc.
>>>
>>> I have zero doubt that someone who has come up with this understanding
>>> as you have, would need any one of the "ten commandments" spelling out
>>> no more that an advanced mathematician would have to repeat his 'times
>>> tables'.
>>>
>>> When you are ready.... always part the natural process.
>>>
>>> BOfL
>>>
>>
>> However, in the same vein, one could also state that the laws of karma
>> were and are a batch of guidelines to help those who are at the stage
>> where you need such direction, etc., etc.
>
> Thats exactly what I am saying.Some just dont need to be told.They have
> "evolved" beyond that stage.
>>
>> One could denigrate any point of view in this manner, by suggesting that
>> such and such a view is held by people "like children", "motivated by
>> fear of consequence". Such an approach to other's beliefs tends to make
>> discussion along these lines pointless, in my opinion.
>
> So you associate such views of others as denigration? Many do, and by
> association are still 'self denigrated' by their earlier "natural" stage.
>
> See why many cant see past lives? They would not be able to live with
> themselves. Just consider the past behavour of just our recent history.
> People "just like us" would burn others at the stake etc.
>
> It is only when one can put all the pieces together, does the full picture
> emerge.
>
> You are right. There is no point in discussing such points with those who
> have not developed their own insights. There are however subtle aspects to
> such communications.
>
> BOfL
>
I agree. The problem is that I can be blind to such subtleties when I
dismiss other's points of view as being at some sort of lesser spiritual
stage of development or whatever. I am so wrapped up in presenting myself
as a instigator of self-examination that I cannot get over my own spiritualy
inflated ego. I am only cheating myself here. There can no expansion, no
progress for me when I decide that I have "moved beyond' those that I am
speaking to. The pretensious self-assured philosopher is one of the worst
bores of all.
Save me from prophets and bodhisattvas!
Scott
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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