XPost: alt.agnosticism, alt.god.timothy.sutter, talk.religion.misc   
   From: a202010@lycos.com-   
      
   and speaking of genesis from singularity   
   and lack of any triggering mechanisms;   
      
   you have to provide as clear a description   
   for the state of affairs -at- Time T = 0   
      
   it's only much after that that you   
   can begin to speak of any sort of   
   atomic material, and any properties   
   which accompany that stuff.   
      
   properties which include heat content,   
   electromagnetic forces, gravitational   
   forces, and atomic forces, work and energy,   
   cannot be credibly cited as 'locked'   
   inside of any 'singularity' waiting   
   to burst forth.   
      
   no, these properties are   
   the -consequence- of   
   atomic material.   
      
   and so, in considering a genesis from   
   a singularity state, no triggering   
   mechanism can be positted and therefore,   
   a very absolute requirement for some   
   sort of concious being to speak things   
   into existance from nothing   
   at all is the consequence   
   with which you are stuck.   
      
      
   so, backtracking from the atomic world..;   
      
   you have your little atom,   
   and you see it like a spring.   
      
   just like a little slinky.   
      
   the slinky is wah-wah-ing back and forth.   
      
   the wah-wah-ing is what's   
   giving you time space   
   and temperature.   
      
   that is, the vibrational qualities   
   of the spring carry the attributes   
   of time space and temperature.   
      
   now, you claim you'd like to visit   
   a 'place' where the spring is compressed   
   into a void of zero space.   
      
   fine, you crush the atomic spring   
   into an entirely different substance.   
      
   well, now that "stuff" has no spring qualities.   
      
   you can no longer cite springlike qualities   
   in regards to this -other- stuff with   
   any degree of certainty whatsever.   
      
   so, you can't speak of concepts like   
   "infinite heat content" and "infinite density"   
   with any reasonable understanding.   
      
   no, you have vanished those 'springlike'   
   qualities in favor of some -other-   
   set of qualities.   
      
   qualities that you can never fully realize   
   from within the constraints of   
   your "physical" reality.   
      
   that is, you have, first, provided the ultimate   
   necessity for a "substance" that has no 'physical'   
   reality and now you must divorce yourself from   
   making a 'physical' attribution upon this "stuff"   
   that has no springlike qualities.   
      
   you -can- convince yourself, quite readily,   
   that this "stuff" has no "beginning" but you   
   can not make this broad leap that the qualities   
   understood in the atomic reality apply, in any   
   fashion, to this "stuff" that has   
   no springlike qualities.   
      
   you can't even go so far as to suggest that   
   this "stuff" is "consumed" into becoming   
   the atomic material.   
      
   but you remain stuck citing   
   a "stuff" that isn't 'real'.   
      
   failing to do so it tantamount to lieing.   
      
   in crushing the spring out of the atom,   
      
   you have an entirely different 'substance'   
   which is alien to the physical material   
   composition to classify.   
      
   what you can not broadly assume is that   
   this 'immaterial-substance' has the springlike   
   attributes of time space and temperature   
   locked in a void "waiting" to burst forth.   
      
   you are not considering a loaded spring.   
      
   you are ceding 'substance' to the immaterial.   
      
   energy is not present in a non-atomic state.   
   no mass, no energy in the material sense.   
   no volume no gravity, no mass.   
   whatever is the composition of 'it'   
      
   gravitational potential energy is lost without mass.   
   electromagnetic energy is lost without atomic structure.   
   heat energy is lost without heat content.   
   atomic energy is lost without atomic structure.   
      
      
   and you have no trigger to push over   
   any metastable teetering. what you have   
   is a definition of energy as an ability   
   to do work and generate heat,   
      
   outside of volume, no work   
   can be accomplished, and without   
   atomic vibrations, no heat   
   can be generated.   
      
   so, you cannot suggest that heat and work   
   were trapped, springloaded, in a singularity.   
   as heat and work -are- virtues of the material.   
      
   no trigger.   
      
   you can't just say;   
      
   "all energy was in the form   
   of heat and waiting to be   
   converted to work"   
      
   aside from matter you have no heat.   
      
   you need matter to generate heat.   
      
   without matter and without volume,   
   you have no heat or work potential.   
      
   those things come in to existance simultaneously.   
      
   i said;   
      
   "infinite heat capacity and   
   infinite density are unreal   
   concepts"   
      
   inasmuch as 'infinity'   
   is -not- a 'real' number.   
      
   infinity fails as a 'real' number   
   by additive identities,   
      
   1 plus infinity = infinity   
      
   infinity plus  infinity = infinity   
      
      
   any real number, when you add another   
   nmumber to it takes to the next successor   
   and does not return itself.   
      
   no real number, when added   
   to itself, returns itself.   
      
   infinity is a "non-real" 'mathematical' concept.   
      
   therefore, 'infinite heat capacity'   
   and 'infinite density' are   
   meaningless statements.   
      
   what you have is some non-material   
   with no forcework acting upon it   
   triggered by some intelligent Hand.   
      
   physically 'at rest' with   
   no forcework to jostle   
   anything material at all.   
      
   which is why i liken it   
   to a matter/energy 'generator'   
      
   you can't speak of 'it' being   
   'consumed' to produce the material.   
      
   and you can't demonstrate that 'it'   
   is not still just as available   
   'now' as it was 'then'   
      
   this immaterial 'device'   
   is employed by God and   
   Jesus made use of 'it'   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)