XPost: alt.atheism, alt.agnosticism, sci.skeptic   
   XPost: alt.christnet   
   From: me@nothere.biz   
      
   On 04-July-2014 1:06 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   > On 07/02/2014 06:30 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >> On 02-July-2014 8:40 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>> On 07/01/2014 12:36 PM, bilgat@m.nu wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> why are you not agnostic. you sound alot more agnostic than atheist.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Agnostic holds the position that the existence of a god is   
   >>>> unknowable   
   >>>   
   >>> There's the rub. Agnosticism holds that it's not possible to know   
   >>> whether gods exist. I don't buy that. I'm perfectly willing to accept   
   >>> the existence of gods, given objective evidence for their existence.   
   >>> Having not seen any such evidence, I remain without any belief in   
   >>> their existence.   
   >>   
   >> so lets talk about what you do believe then, to be consistent with your   
   >> position of no evidence for God.   
   >   
   > To simplify, I believe I have never seen objective evidence for the   
   > existence of magical powers.  So, what specifically do *you* believe?   
   > Do you actually believe in one or more of the popular gods, and if so,   
   > why those and not all the others?   
   >   
   >> you believe then that NO prayer has   
   >> ever been answered or ever will be. you believe that NO person ever has   
   >> ever had any spiritual encounter or experience, or ever will. you   
   >> believe there's NO evidence that Jesus ever existed, despite what is   
   >> written in the bible. you believe that NO story in the bible, or any   
   >> other holy book, is true or really happened. you believe that NO   
   >> prophecy has ever been or ever will be fulfilled. you believe there is   
   >> NO creator, and all life and existence must have some other cause or   
   >> origin. you believe there is NO afterlife although you can't prove it.   
   >> you believe that ALL the billions of ppl who believe in God are deluded.   
   >   
   > You got some right, and missed on others.  That's about as accurate as   
   > a psychic reading, so I guess it's no surprise coming from a proponent   
   > of magic.   
   >   
   >> and so on, and so on. Of course you can and will believe what you like,   
   >> but I as I've said, I believe the claim that there's no evidence for God   
   >> is just silly, and that it takes much more to credulity to believe it   
   >> than to accept that there is evidence, because there clearly is. the   
   >   
   > And yet, every time you're asked for evidence of gods, you resort to   
   > evidence that some people *believe* in gods instead.  It's been   
   > pointed out to you repeatedly that similar evidence exists to support   
   > beliefs in many different gods, some of which preclude others, so at   
   > least some of those beliefs are definitely wrong. None of those   
   > beliefs have (as far as I've seen) any better evidence to support them   
   > than the others, and none of them have any evidence better than the   
   > evidence that there people who believe there are no gods.  How is it   
   > "silly" to just not accept any gods or other supernatural things   
   > without evidence that directly supports them?  Isn't it a lot more   
   > silly to believe in one (or one group) of particular gods, to the   
   > exclusion of the others?   
   >   
   >> more I see atheists wanting to deny there's any evidence for God, the   
   >> more I'm convinced they're simply running scared from the possibility   
   >> that any religious claims may be true. I've yet to see any atheist come   
   >> out and say.. "yes, there's plenty of evidence for God, but I simply   
   >> don't want to accept it"   
   >   
   > There's plenty of evidence that people believe in gods, and have done   
   > so for a very long time.  I accept that, even though it's remotely   
   > possible it's all been faked somehow.  You still haven't presented   
   > even a shred of evidence that any one or more of these gods actually   
   > exist, outside the imaginations of the believers. Are you prepared to   
   > do that now?   
      
   the only point I make, that I have ever tried to make, is that there is   
   evidence for God. you can say it's just evidence that ppl believe in   
   God/gods if you wish, but that's not true. all of those things I   
   mentioned that you don't believe in are evidence for God, not just   
   evidence of belief. the bible stories about Jesus are evidence for   
   Jesus, not just what someone believes. any prayer that is claimed to   
   have been answered is evidence that prayer is answered, not just that   
   ppl believe in answered prayer. every miracle that is said to have   
   happened is evidence for miracles, and not that ppl believe in miracles.   
   all I'm talking about here is evidence, not proof.   
      
   --   
   rgds,   
      
   Pete   
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