XPost: alt.atheism, alt.agnosticism, sci.skeptic   
   XPost: alt.christnet   
   From: me@nothere.biz   
      
   On 07-July-2014 11:10 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   > On 07/06/2014 02:42 AM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >> On 06-July-2014 5:21 PM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>> On 07/04/2014 04:57 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>>> On 04-July-2014 1:06 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>>> On 07/02/2014 06:30 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 02-July-2014 8:40 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On 07/01/2014 12:36 PM, bilgat@m.nu wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> why are you not agnostic. you sound alot more agnostic than   
   >>>>>>>> atheist.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Agnostic holds the position that the existence of a god is   
   >>>>>>>> unknowable   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> There's the rub. Agnosticism holds that it's not possible to know   
   >>>>>>> whether gods exist. I don't buy that. I'm perfectly willing to   
   >>>>>>> accept   
   >>>>>>> the existence of gods, given objective evidence for their   
   >>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>> Having not seen any such evidence, I remain without any belief in   
   >>>>>>> their existence.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> so lets talk about what you do believe then, to be consistent with   
   >>>>>> your   
   >>>>>> position of no evidence for God.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> To simplify, I believe I have never seen objective evidence for the   
   >>>>> existence of magical powers.  So, what specifically do *you* believe?   
   >>>>> Do you actually believe in one or more of the popular gods, and if   
   >>>>> so,   
   >>>>> why those and not all the others?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> you believe then that NO prayer has   
   >>>>>> ever been answered or ever will be. you believe that NO person ever   
   >>>>>> has   
   >>>>>> ever had any spiritual encounter or experience, or ever will. you   
   >>>>>> believe there's NO evidence that Jesus ever existed, despite what is   
   >>>>>> written in the bible. you believe that NO story in the bible, or any   
   >>>>>> other holy book, is true or really happened. you believe that NO   
   >>>>>> prophecy has ever been or ever will be fulfilled. you believe   
   >>>>>> there is   
   >>>>>> NO creator, and all life and existence must have some other cause or   
   >>>>>> origin. you believe there is NO afterlife although you can't   
   >>>>>> prove it.   
   >>>>>> you believe that ALL the billions of ppl who believe in God are   
   >>>>>> deluded.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> You got some right, and missed on others.  That's about as   
   >>>>> accurate as   
   >>>>> a psychic reading, so I guess it's no surprise coming from a   
   >>>>> proponent   
   >>>>> of magic.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> and so on, and so on. Of course you can and will believe what you   
   >>>>>> like,   
   >>>>>> but I as I've said, I believe the claim that there's no evidence   
   >>>>>> for God   
   >>>>>> is just silly, and that it takes much more to credulity to   
   >>>>>> believe it   
   >>>>>> than to accept that there is evidence, because there clearly is. the   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> And yet, every time you're asked for evidence of gods, you resort to   
   >>>>> evidence that some people *believe* in gods instead.  It's been   
   >>>>> pointed out to you repeatedly that similar evidence exists to support   
   >>>>> beliefs in many different gods, some of which preclude others, so at   
   >>>>> least some of those beliefs are definitely wrong. None of those   
   >>>>> beliefs have (as far as I've seen) any better evidence to support   
   >>>>> them   
   >>>>> than the others, and none of them have any evidence better than the   
   >>>>> evidence that there people who believe there are no gods. How is it   
   >>>>> "silly" to just not accept any gods or other supernatural things   
   >>>>> without evidence that directly supports them?  Isn't it a lot more   
   >>>>> silly to believe in one (or one group) of particular gods, to the   
   >>>>> exclusion of the others?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> more I see atheists wanting to deny there's any evidence for God,   
   >>>>>> the   
   >>>>>> more I'm convinced they're simply running scared from the   
   >>>>>> possibility   
   >>>>>> that any religious claims may be true. I've yet to see any atheist   
   >>>>>> come   
   >>>>>> out and say.. "yes, there's plenty of evidence for God, but I simply   
   >>>>>> don't want to accept it"   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> There's plenty of evidence that people believe in gods, and have done   
   >>>>> so for a very long time.  I accept that, even though it's remotely   
   >>>>> possible it's all been faked somehow.  You still haven't presented   
   >>>>> even a shred of evidence that any one or more of these gods actually   
   >>>>> exist, outside the imaginations of the believers. Are you prepared to   
   >>>>> do that now?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> the only point I make, that I have ever tried to make, is that   
   >>>> there is   
   >>>> evidence for God. you can say it's just evidence that ppl believe in   
   >>>> God/gods if you wish, but that's not true. all of those things I   
   >>>> mentioned that you don't believe in are evidence for God, not just   
   >>>> evidence of belief. the bible stories about Jesus are evidence for   
   >>>> Jesus, not just what someone believes. any prayer that is claimed to   
   >>>> have been answered is evidence that prayer is answered, not just that   
   >>>> ppl believe in answered prayer. every miracle that is said to have   
   >>>> happened is evidence for miracles, and not that ppl believe in   
   >>>> miracles.   
   >>>> all I'm talking about here is evidence, not proof.   
   >>>   
   >>> No, they just aren't.  These stories are evidence that people wrote   
   >>> the stories, and their popularity and the seriousness with which some   
   >>> people treat them is evidence that some people believe the stories. No   
   >>> story is evidence of its own truth.  And no, we're not looking for   
   >>> proof, just any actual evidence.  So the only point you make is   
   >>> completely wrong. That must be frustrating.   
   >>   
   >> It's not. because I know I'm right. you're in d'nile because you want to   
   >> believe there is simply NO evidence for God, because you want to believe   
   >> that God does not exist. no 'normal' person says there is no evidence   
   >> for God. only atheists do because they want to be atheists.   
   >   
   > No matter how many times I correct you about what I believe or want to   
   > believe, you misrepresent it.  This makes you either extraordinarily   
   > dense, or a liar.   
      
   remind me   
      
   >   
   >>> I notice that you again refuse to state your own beliefs,   
   >>   
   >> yes, because I'm not here to talk about myself or what I believe or not   
   >   
   > You ask others what they believe, but refuse to say what you believe.   
      
   I don't. I don't recall asking anyone what they believe. I simply reply   
   to what they post, or post my own views. feel free to quote me asking   
   others what they believe. but even if I did, so what? ppl can decline to   
   say. they have that right, as do I.   
      
   > Using your own approach of assigning motives and fears to others, I'll   
   > just go ahead and say that it's obvious you're a "Christian" who   
   > doesn't really believe any of the crap your pedarist leaders pollute   
   > the world with.  You know they're a bunch of liars and cheats, but   
   > you're afraid to admit that you realize there is no god, that Jesus   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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