XPost: alt.atheism, alt.agnosticism, sci.skeptic   
   XPost: alt.christnet   
   From: bruces42@hotmail.com   
      
   On 07/06/2014 09:46 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   > On 07-July-2014 11:10 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >> On 07/06/2014 02:42 AM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>> On 06-July-2014 5:21 PM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>> On 07/04/2014 04:57 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>>>> On 04-July-2014 1:06 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 07/02/2014 06:30 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On 02-July-2014 8:40 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On 07/01/2014 12:36 PM, bilgat@m.nu wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> why are you not agnostic. you sound alot more agnostic than   
   >>>>>>>>> atheist.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Agnostic holds the position that the existence of a god is   
   >>>>>>>>> unknowable   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> There's the rub. Agnosticism holds that it's not possible to know   
   >>>>>>>> whether gods exist. I don't buy that. I'm perfectly willing to   
   >>>>>>>> accept   
   >>>>>>>> the existence of gods, given objective evidence for their   
   >>>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>>> Having not seen any such evidence, I remain without any belief in   
   >>>>>>>> their existence.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> so lets talk about what you do believe then, to be consistent with   
   >>>>>>> your   
   >>>>>>> position of no evidence for God.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> To simplify, I believe I have never seen objective evidence for the   
   >>>>>> existence of magical powers.  So, what specifically do *you* believe?   
   >>>>>> Do you actually believe in one or more of the popular gods, and if   
   >>>>>> so,   
   >>>>>> why those and not all the others?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> you believe then that NO prayer has   
   >>>>>>> ever been answered or ever will be. you believe that NO person ever   
   >>>>>>> has   
   >>>>>>> ever had any spiritual encounter or experience, or ever will. you   
   >>>>>>> believe there's NO evidence that Jesus ever existed, despite what is   
   >>>>>>> written in the bible. you believe that NO story in the bible, or any   
   >>>>>>> other holy book, is true or really happened. you believe that NO   
   >>>>>>> prophecy has ever been or ever will be fulfilled. you believe   
   >>>>>>> there is   
   >>>>>>> NO creator, and all life and existence must have some other cause or   
   >>>>>>> origin. you believe there is NO afterlife although you can't   
   >>>>>>> prove it.   
   >>>>>>> you believe that ALL the billions of ppl who believe in God are   
   >>>>>>> deluded.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> You got some right, and missed on others.  That's about as   
   >>>>>> accurate as   
   >>>>>> a psychic reading, so I guess it's no surprise coming from a   
   >>>>>> proponent   
   >>>>>> of magic.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> and so on, and so on. Of course you can and will believe what you   
   >>>>>>> like,   
   >>>>>>> but I as I've said, I believe the claim that there's no evidence   
   >>>>>>> for God   
   >>>>>>> is just silly, and that it takes much more to credulity to   
   >>>>>>> believe it   
   >>>>>>> than to accept that there is evidence, because there clearly is. the   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> And yet, every time you're asked for evidence of gods, you resort to   
   >>>>>> evidence that some people *believe* in gods instead.  It's been   
   >>>>>> pointed out to you repeatedly that similar evidence exists to support   
   >>>>>> beliefs in many different gods, some of which preclude others, so at   
   >>>>>> least some of those beliefs are definitely wrong. None of those   
   >>>>>> beliefs have (as far as I've seen) any better evidence to support   
   >>>>>> them   
   >>>>>> than the others, and none of them have any evidence better than the   
   >>>>>> evidence that there people who believe there are no gods. How is it   
   >>>>>> "silly" to just not accept any gods or other supernatural things   
   >>>>>> without evidence that directly supports them?  Isn't it a lot more   
   >>>>>> silly to believe in one (or one group) of particular gods, to the   
   >>>>>> exclusion of the others?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> more I see atheists wanting to deny there's any evidence for God,   
   >>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>> more I'm convinced they're simply running scared from the   
   >>>>>>> possibility   
   >>>>>>> that any religious claims may be true. I've yet to see any atheist   
   >>>>>>> come   
   >>>>>>> out and say.. "yes, there's plenty of evidence for God, but I simply   
   >>>>>>> don't want to accept it"   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> There's plenty of evidence that people believe in gods, and have done   
   >>>>>> so for a very long time.  I accept that, even though it's remotely   
   >>>>>> possible it's all been faked somehow.  You still haven't presented   
   >>>>>> even a shred of evidence that any one or more of these gods actually   
   >>>>>> exist, outside the imaginations of the believers. Are you prepared to   
   >>>>>> do that now?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> the only point I make, that I have ever tried to make, is that   
   >>>>> there is   
   >>>>> evidence for God. you can say it's just evidence that ppl believe in   
   >>>>> God/gods if you wish, but that's not true. all of those things I   
   >>>>> mentioned that you don't believe in are evidence for God, not just   
   >>>>> evidence of belief. the bible stories about Jesus are evidence for   
   >>>>> Jesus, not just what someone believes. any prayer that is claimed to   
   >>>>> have been answered is evidence that prayer is answered, not just that   
   >>>>> ppl believe in answered prayer. every miracle that is said to have   
   >>>>> happened is evidence for miracles, and not that ppl believe in   
   >>>>> miracles.   
   >>>>> all I'm talking about here is evidence, not proof.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> No, they just aren't.  These stories are evidence that people wrote   
   >>>> the stories, and their popularity and the seriousness with which some   
   >>>> people treat them is evidence that some people believe the stories. No   
   >>>> story is evidence of its own truth.  And no, we're not looking for   
   >>>> proof, just any actual evidence.  So the only point you make is   
   >>>> completely wrong. That must be frustrating.   
   >>>   
   >>> It's not. because I know I'm right. you're in d'nile because you want to   
   >>> believe there is simply NO evidence for God, because you want to believe   
   >>> that God does not exist. no 'normal' person says there is no evidence   
   >>> for God. only atheists do because they want to be atheists.   
   >>   
   >> No matter how many times I correct you about what I believe or want to   
   >> believe, you misrepresent it.  This makes you either extraordinarily   
   >> dense, or a liar.   
   >   
   > remind me   
      
   It's literally right up there in this post, as part of the history.  How   
   hard is that?   
      
   >>>> I notice that you again refuse to state your own beliefs,   
   >>>   
   >>> yes, because I'm not here to talk about myself or what I believe or not   
   >>   
   >> You ask others what they believe, but refuse to say what you believe.   
   >   
   > I don't. I don't recall asking anyone what they believe. I simply reply   
      
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