XPost: alt.atheism, alt.agnosticism, sci.skeptic   
   XPost: alt.christnet   
   From: bruces42@hotmail.com   
      
   On 07/07/2014 06:56 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   > On 08-July-2014 2:20 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >> On 07/06/2014 09:46 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>> On 07-July-2014 11:10 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>> On 07/06/2014 02:42 AM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>>>> On 06-July-2014 5:21 PM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 07/04/2014 04:57 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On 04-July-2014 1:06 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On 07/02/2014 06:30 PM, felix_unger wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On 02-July-2014 8:40 AM, BruceS wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 07/01/2014 12:36 PM, bilgat@m.nu wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> why are you not agnostic. you sound alot more agnostic than   
   >>>>>>>>>>> atheist.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Agnostic holds the position that the existence of a god is   
   >>>>>>>>>>> unknowable   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> There's the rub. Agnosticism holds that it's not possible to know   
   >>>>>>>>>> whether gods exist. I don't buy that. I'm perfectly willing to   
   >>>>>>>>>> accept   
   >>>>>>>>>> the existence of gods, given objective evidence for their   
   >>>>>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>> Having not seen any such evidence, I remain without any belief in   
   >>>>>>>>>> their existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> so lets talk about what you do believe then, to be consistent with   
   >>>>>>>>> your   
   >>>>>>>>> position of no evidence for God.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> To simplify, I believe I have never seen objective evidence for the   
   >>>>>>>> existence of magical powers.  So, what specifically do *you*   
   >>>>>>>> believe?   
   >>>>>>>> Do you actually believe in one or more of the popular gods, and if   
   >>>>>>>> so,   
   >>>>>>>> why those and not all the others?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> you believe then that NO prayer has   
   >>>>>>>>> ever been answered or ever will be. you believe that NO person   
   >>>>>>>>> ever   
   >>>>>>>>> has   
   >>>>>>>>> ever had any spiritual encounter or experience, or ever will. you   
   >>>>>>>>> believe there's NO evidence that Jesus ever existed, despite   
   >>>>>>>>> what is   
   >>>>>>>>> written in the bible. you believe that NO story in the bible,   
   >>>>>>>>> or any   
   >>>>>>>>> other holy book, is true or really happened. you believe that NO   
   >>>>>>>>> prophecy has ever been or ever will be fulfilled. you believe   
   >>>>>>>>> there is   
   >>>>>>>>> NO creator, and all life and existence must have some other   
   >>>>>>>>> cause or   
   >>>>>>>>> origin. you believe there is NO afterlife although you can't   
   >>>>>>>>> prove it.   
   >>>>>>>>> you believe that ALL the billions of ppl who believe in God are   
   >>>>>>>>> deluded.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> You got some right, and missed on others.  That's about as   
   >>>>>>>> accurate as   
   >>>>>>>> a psychic reading, so I guess it's no surprise coming from a   
   >>>>>>>> proponent   
   >>>>>>>> of magic.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> and so on, and so on. Of course you can and will believe what you   
   >>>>>>>>> like,   
   >>>>>>>>> but I as I've said, I believe the claim that there's no evidence   
   >>>>>>>>> for God   
   >>>>>>>>> is just silly, and that it takes much more to credulity to   
   >>>>>>>>> believe it   
   >>>>>>>>> than to accept that there is evidence, because there clearly   
   >>>>>>>>> is. the   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> And yet, every time you're asked for evidence of gods, you   
   >>>>>>>> resort to   
   >>>>>>>> evidence that some people *believe* in gods instead. It's been   
   >>>>>>>> pointed out to you repeatedly that similar evidence exists to   
   >>>>>>>> support   
   >>>>>>>> beliefs in many different gods, some of which preclude others,   
   >>>>>>>> so at   
   >>>>>>>> least some of those beliefs are definitely wrong. None of those   
   >>>>>>>> beliefs have (as far as I've seen) any better evidence to support   
   >>>>>>>> them   
   >>>>>>>> than the others, and none of them have any evidence better than the   
   >>>>>>>> evidence that there people who believe there are no gods. How is it   
   >>>>>>>> "silly" to just not accept any gods or other supernatural things   
   >>>>>>>> without evidence that directly supports them?  Isn't it a lot more   
   >>>>>>>> silly to believe in one (or one group) of particular gods, to the   
   >>>>>>>> exclusion of the others?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> more I see atheists wanting to deny there's any evidence for God,   
   >>>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>> more I'm convinced they're simply running scared from the   
   >>>>>>>>> possibility   
   >>>>>>>>> that any religious claims may be true. I've yet to see any atheist   
   >>>>>>>>> come   
   >>>>>>>>> out and say.. "yes, there's plenty of evidence for God, but I   
   >>>>>>>>> simply   
   >>>>>>>>> don't want to accept it"   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> There's plenty of evidence that people believe in gods, and have   
   >>>>>>>> done   
   >>>>>>>> so for a very long time.  I accept that, even though it's remotely   
   >>>>>>>> possible it's all been faked somehow.  You still haven't presented   
   >>>>>>>> even a shred of evidence that any one or more of these gods   
   >>>>>>>> actually   
   >>>>>>>> exist, outside the imaginations of the believers. Are you   
   >>>>>>>> prepared to   
   >>>>>>>> do that now?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> the only point I make, that I have ever tried to make, is that   
   >>>>>>> there is   
   >>>>>>> evidence for God. you can say it's just evidence that ppl believe in   
   >>>>>>> God/gods if you wish, but that's not true. all of those things I   
   >>>>>>> mentioned that you don't believe in are evidence for God, not just   
   >>>>>>> evidence of belief. the bible stories about Jesus are evidence for   
   >>>>>>> Jesus, not just what someone believes. any prayer that is claimed to   
   >>>>>>> have been answered is evidence that prayer is answered, not just   
   >>>>>>> that   
   >>>>>>> ppl believe in answered prayer. every miracle that is said to have   
   >>>>>>> happened is evidence for miracles, and not that ppl believe in   
   >>>>>>> miracles.   
   >>>>>>> all I'm talking about here is evidence, not proof.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> No, they just aren't.  These stories are evidence that people wrote   
   >>>>>> the stories, and their popularity and the seriousness with which some   
   >>>>>> people treat them is evidence that some people believe the   
   >>>>>> stories. No   
   >>>>>> story is evidence of its own truth.  And no, we're not looking for   
   >>>>>> proof, just any actual evidence.  So the only point you make is   
   >>>>>> completely wrong. That must be frustrating.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> It's not. because I know I'm right. you're in d'nile because you   
   >>>>> want to   
   >>>>> believe there is simply NO evidence for God, because you want to   
   >>>>> believe   
   >>>>> that God does not exist. no 'normal' person says there is no evidence   
   >>>>> for God. only atheists do because they want to be atheists.   
   >>>>   
      
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