XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: wudao@wuji.net   
      
   Tang wrote:   
   > {:-]))) wrote:   
   >   
   >> With the Sage, majuscule, when things get done,   
   >> the people think they did it themselves.   
   >>   
   >> There's a TTC verse for that, I think,   
   >> but I don't know what it is off the top of my head.   
   >   
   >Actually, that is the ruse of God or the universe:   
   >when things get done, the people think they did   
   >it themselves.   
      
   With Taoism, there is no need for God to exist.   
   God is entirely superfluous hyperbole at times.   
   The Maker of Things is found in a story.   
      
   With the universe, as 10k-things, or wan-wu,   
   I don't think it is as you portray it. Yet it can be.   
      
   It's the context that tends to resolve and dissolve   
   all things as all things are unfolded when folded.   
      
   As all things are spontaneously what they are.   
      
   And yet, the Sage, or sage, is spoken of.   
      
   One may wonder, why bother to speak of a sage,   
   or a Sage, if all things are as they are as a given.   
      
   >I recently wrote that God squirted   
   >into us, and that we oozed into existence in the   
   >same movement, and again, the implication is   
   >that God acts us in our stead, but we falsely   
   >take credit for it (for God).   
      
   Phil 2:5-6 at times appears, naturally.   
   Forgetting to forget might be a major sin.   
   And that is when the games begin.   
      
   >Less theologically,   
   >the uncarved whole works us up, acts us and   
   >moves us like toys, but we take ourselves   
   >seriously and usurp its power.   
      
   I tend not to see Tao as doing that.   
      
   If Tao is P'u, the unhewn tree or uncarved block,   
   it simply is and is without power. Tao is always wu-wei.   
      
   To usurp the power of wu-wei strikes me   
   as being less being as soft as water.   
   Except it's much more than that.   
   As words flip and belly-flop.   
      
   > The way back is   
   >for us to be passive and let God act us in our   
   >stead, so that we reabsorb into the whole, the   
   >only universal. Zi-ran ?? is right there, in full.   
   >Daoism is packed up and canned in there, for   
   >public consumption.   
      
   I pray quite often as a matter of act and fact,   
   and yet, with Taoism, I see that as being besides   
   or other than what's being pointed at, in Taoism.   
      
   And that's because of the word, God.   
      
   God is gold paint on a flower in some forms of Taoism.   
   To make it clear, clear paint is entirely unnecessary.   
   It kills the flowers who follow the Sun.   
      
   God is a word that some people highly object to   
   and is why such people are drawn to Tao.   
      
   To introduce God into a Taoist equation   
   might be playing a wild-card when there aren't any.   
      
   Jokers and deuces and such might exist.   
   And some can be discovered in Taoist tales.   
      
   Yet, as a whole, they are less than unnecessary   
   for some of the people some of the time.   
      
   And, in some forms of many deals, are removed   
   from the deck before any shuffle begins.   
      
   The jokers that is.   
   Deuces tend to be left as all four.   
      
   Bids and bets vary.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)