XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, alt.philosophy.zen, alt.philosophy.taoism   
   From: tony.kingsbury@gmail.com   
      
   On 10/09/2016 3:14 PM, Tang Huyen wrote:   
   > On 9/9/2016 4:58 PM, Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >   
   >> So how would it be if you abandoned the view that 'enlightenment will   
   >> result if you abandon all views'?   
   >>   
   >> Which isn't possible, of course. Our minds insist on us having a view or   
   >> opinion about *everything* we encounter.   
   >   
   > Ummie dear, How could you possibly know that   
   > it is impossible to abandon all views? How could   
   > you possibly know that "Our minds insist on us   
   > having a view or opinion about *everything* we   
   > encounter"? Have you perchance read all minds,   
   > past, present and future, anywhere on earth,   
   > including minds of dead people and unborn   
   > people?   
      
   Yes. If one knows one's own mind, one knows that all human minds are the   
   same.It isn't necessary to 'read' them all.   
   If one knows that water quenches thirst, one can quite legitimately   
   'universalize' that knowledge. One doesn't have to check out every   
   creek, bottle, lake, river, faucet on the planet. And if one meets   
   someone who is thirsty, one can offer them water, secure in the   
   knowledge that, if they're human, water will be what they need.   
      
   >   
   > I freely admit that I have been nowhere near   
   > abandoning all views, meaning intellective views.   
   > But I read that some sages say so, ostensibly   
   > from their own experience. So to me it is mere   
   > hearsay. And I freely admit that I do not live up   
   > to norms and standards that I proclaim. I refrain   
   > from abusively universalising my views to all   
   > humans, though I trust those sages who   
   > declaim their (presumed) experience, namely   
   > that they can and do abandon all views.   
      
   Nobody is abusing you.   
   To point out what seem to be inconsistencies in someone's viewpoint   
   isn't abuse - it's rational discussion. The sort of thing one used to   
   get in newsgroups.   
      
   You seem to have difficulty accepting the fact that there can be   
   something which is true for all humans. We're born with it. Babies have   
   it. Old folk still have it. And it has nothing whatever to do with   
   'views & opinions'. Whether you embrace them, or reject them, or try to   
   get rid of them, or accumulate more of them (mental culture) - it's all   
   simply irrelevant. We all come equipped with 'enlightenment', or   
   'satori' or 'samadhi' or whatever you like to call it.   
      
   It has nothing to do with 'norms & standards' either. These are social   
   constructs, learnt behaviours. They are irrelevant to who we really are,   
   although they have a lot to do with our egos, the image of ourselves we   
   like to project to others. Whether you proclaim them, or not, live up to   
   them, or not - simply doesn't matter. You can still tune in to the   
   presence in the present moment. That's where the fun is.   
      
     It is to   
   > me a noble ideal that I may or may not attain in   
   > this life. And if I cannot attain it, I can yet relax   
   > and be serene, about it and everything else, at   
   > least to some extent and once in a while, even   
   > as I know that I often fail.   
   >   
   > You can enjoy certainty all you want. I am sadly   
   > not equipped for that.   
      
   Permit me to doubt that. You seem to be certain enough in your trust in   
   those sages who say one should abandon all views.   
      
   I may be misreading you - but it seems to me that you are rather   
   unserenely and unrelaxedly clinging to the view that all views must be   
   abandoned.   
   Could it be that you have been in the past a little too scholarly?   
   Perhaps accumulated a few too many opinions for your own comfort?   
   Perhaps a little irritated by the suggestion that 'mental culture' might   
   be a blind alley? That someone who can't read Latin or French - or in   
   fact may not be able to read at all, may be as close to their own inner   
   clarity and wisdom as you are?   
      
   Are you not extremely certain that the views you hold to be correct, in   
   fact are so?   
   So where does that certainty spring from?   
      
   >   
   > Tang Huyen   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)