XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, alt.philosophy.zen, alt.philosophy.taoism   
   From: tony.kingsbury@gmail.com   
      
   On 10/09/2016 4:22 PM, liaM wrote:   
   > On 9/10/2016 5:14 AM, Tang Huyen wrote:   
   >> On 9/9/2016 4:58 PM, Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> So how would it be if you abandoned the view that 'enlightenment will   
   >>> result if you abandon all views'?   
   >>>   
   >>> Which isn't possible, of course. Our minds insist on us having a view or   
   >>> opinion about *everything* we encounter.   
   >>   
   >> Ummie dear, How could you possibly know that   
   >> it is impossible to abandon all views? How could   
   >> you possibly know that "Our minds insist on us   
   >> having a view or opinion about *everything* we   
   >> encounter"? Have you perchance read all minds,   
   >> past, present and future, anywhere on earth,   
   >> including minds of dead people and unborn   
   >> people?   
   >>   
   >> I freely admit that I have been nowhere near   
   >> abandoning all views, meaning intellective views.   
   >> But I read that some sages say so, ostensibly   
   >> from their own experience. So to me it is mere   
   >> hearsay. And I freely admit that I do not live up   
   >> to norms and standards that I proclaim. I refrain   
   >> from abusively universalising my views to all   
   >> humans, though I trust those sages who   
   >> declaim their (presumed) experience, namely   
   >> that they can and do abandon all views. It is to   
   >> me a noble ideal that I may or may not attain in   
   >> this life. And if I cannot attain it, I can yet relax   
   >> and be serene, about it and everything else, at   
   >> least to some extent and once in a while, even   
   >> as I know that I often fail.   
   >>   
   >> You can enjoy certainty all you want. I am sadly   
   >> not equipped for that.   
   >>   
   >> Tang Huyen   
   >   
   >   
   > Buddhist enlightenment must mean enlightenment with regards to   
   > as many views as one is capable of while not   
   > holding fast to any one view in particular.  Why is it said   
   > that a Buddha can remember all past lives he has lived ? And   
   > is it anywhere said that he preferred one over another of his past lives ?   
   >   
   > People holding on to opinions, wishes and prescriptions - saying   
   > this is so and cannot be otherwise, are soon left behind as   
   > life passes them by.  Peace and quietude are fine as goals of   
   > spiritual development, but what are they without   
   > the knowledge of what not having peace and quietude signifies?   
      
   Agreed.   
      
   > Thus imo the sage is one who has lived many lives, seen much,   
   > done much, loved much - died a thousand deaths, much :)   
   > He is the holder of many views on life, in full awareness   
   > of what each has cost him, thus has he earned his equanimity   
   > with regards to all views.   
      
   To hold an opinion, or a definition, of what a sage might be, is perhaps   
   a good thing. It may or may not be right - you won't know for sure until   
   you are sage yourself.   
      
   No-one knows for sure whether we have lived past lives, or whether we'll   
   live again later. That too is a matter of opinion.   
   But what we do know for sure is that we're alive now. A wise person acts   
   as if this is the only life he'll ever have.   
      
   If enlightenment is possible in any one of a thousand lifetimes, then it   
   must be possible in this one.   
      
   There is only one 'view of life' that really matters - the true one, the   
   one that's in sync with our essential human nature. The one that makes   
   it possible for anyone to be a sage, if they really want to be.   
   Wisdom and clarity aren't slow, patient, accumulations - they're as   
   simple as finding the light switch in a dark room & turning it on.   
   There's no point sitting in the gloom, through a string of imagined   
   lifetimes, wondering what colour the light might be, or how bright, or   
   what it might feel like to be able to see clearly.   
   Just find the switch :-)   
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   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)