XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, alt.philosophy.zen
From: tony.kingsbury@gmail.com
On 10/09/2016 11:24 PM, noname wrote:
> Ummmmmmm wrote:
>> On 10/09/2016 4:22 PM, liaM wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2016 5:14 AM, Tang Huyen wrote:
>>>> On 9/9/2016 4:58 PM, Ummmmmmm wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So how would it be if you abandoned the view that 'enlightenment will
>>>>> result if you abandon all views'?
>>>>>
>>>>> Which isn't possible, of course. Our minds insist on us having a view or
>>>>> opinion about *everything* we encounter.
>>>>
>>>> Ummie dear, How could you possibly know that
>>>> it is impossible to abandon all views? How could
>>>> you possibly know that "Our minds insist on us
>>>> having a view or opinion about *everything* we
>>>> encounter"? Have you perchance read all minds,
>>>> past, present and future, anywhere on earth,
>>>> including minds of dead people and unborn
>>>> people?
>>>>
>>>> I freely admit that I have been nowhere near
>>>> abandoning all views, meaning intellective views.
>>>> But I read that some sages say so, ostensibly
>>>> from their own experience. So to me it is mere
>>>> hearsay. And I freely admit that I do not live up
>>>> to norms and standards that I proclaim. I refrain
>>>> from abusively universalising my views to all
>>>> humans, though I trust those sages who
>>>> declaim their (presumed) experience, namely
>>>> that they can and do abandon all views. It is to
>>>> me a noble ideal that I may or may not attain in
>>>> this life. And if I cannot attain it, I can yet relax
>>>> and be serene, about it and everything else, at
>>>> least to some extent and once in a while, even
>>>> as I know that I often fail.
>>>>
>>>> You can enjoy certainty all you want. I am sadly
>>>> not equipped for that.
>>>>
>>>> Tang Huyen
>>>
>>>
>>> Buddhist enlightenment must mean enlightenment with regards to
>>> as many views as one is capable of while not
>>> holding fast to any one view in particular. Why is it said
>>> that a Buddha can remember all past lives he has lived ? And
>>> is it anywhere said that he preferred one over another of his past lives ?
>>>
>>> People holding on to opinions, wishes and prescriptions - saying
>>> this is so and cannot be otherwise, are soon left behind as
>>> life passes them by. Peace and quietude are fine as goals of
>>> spiritual development, but what are they without
>>> the knowledge of what not having peace and quietude signifies?
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>> Thus imo the sage is one who has lived many lives, seen much,
>>> done much, loved much - died a thousand deaths, much :)
>>> He is the holder of many views on life, in full awareness
>>> of what each has cost him, thus has he earned his equanimity
>>> with regards to all views.
>>
>> To hold an opinion, or a definition, of what a sage might be, is perhaps
>> a good thing. It may or may not be right - you won't know for sure until
>> you are sage yourself.
>>
>> No-one knows for sure whether we have lived past lives, or whether we'll
>> live again later. That too is a matter of opinion.
>> But what we do know for sure is that we're alive now. A wise person acts
>> as if this is the only life he'll ever have.
>>
>> If enlightenment is possible in any one of a thousand lifetimes, then it
>> must be possible in this one.
>>
>> There is only one 'view of life' that really matters -
>
> It is not the color or tint of the spectacles through which you view
> reality that matters, it is whether what you see through it is true or
> false. Looking through a viewpoint tinted blue, or tinted atheist, or
> tinted fundy-Christian, it doesn't mater a bit what shape or color the
> world you see has. What matters is what the world you see does, and what
> significance you perceive in that. When multiple people who have different
> viewpoints see the same thing, the same reality, behaving in the same way,
> they are seeing the same thing, through different sets of spectacles, each
> adjusted to the eyes of the viewer who wears them. In other words there is
> no one true shape or color for spectacles, but there is just one reality,
> that can be seen truly through many kinds of viewer. Or more often, seen
> falsely through delusion rooted in desire, or misunderstanding rooted in
> the naive ignorance of childhood. And even if one finds the magical
> microscope focus point, attempting to compare notes with others is
> difficult, because they may be hearing what you see, or smelling something
> entirely different from what others hear.
>
>> the true one, the
>> one that's in sync with our essential human nature. The one that makes
>> it possible for anyone to be a sage, if they really want to be.
>
> Really wanting something doesn't make it happen.
Really, really, wanting something - and knowing that it's possible -
means you don't give up until you've found it.
If we have only one life - surely we have to aim for the highest?
Otherwise we let ourselves down.
>
>> Wisdom and clarity aren't slow, patient, accumulations - they're as
>> simple as finding the light switch in a dark room & turning it on.
>> There's no point sitting in the gloom, through a string of imagined
>> lifetimes, wondering what colour the light might be, or how bright, or
>> what it might feel like to be able to see clearly.
>> Just find the switch :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> There is no switch, the lights are on all the time, even when there's
> nobody home; the problem isn't how to switch on the lights, but how not to
> be standing in the darkness because your eyes are shut.
>
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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