XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.philosophy.zen, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: invalid@invalid.invalid   
      
   liaM  wrote:   
   > On 9/16/2016 1:07 AM, noname wrote:   
   >> liaM  wrote:   
   >>> On 9/15/2016 11:55 AM, noname wrote:   
   >>>> liaM  wrote:   
   >>>>> On 9/14/2016 9:55 PM, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 14/09/2016 21:25, noname wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> There are no random mutations.  None.  Everything is mutating, all the   
   >>>>>>> time.  Then people come along and look at the survivors and say   
   >>>>>>> they're the   
   >>>>>>> result of "random" mutations.  There's nothing "random" about it,   
   >>>>>>> those are   
   >>>>>>> the few of the infinite number of different kinds of survivors who   
   >>>>>>> actually   
   >>>>>>> survived.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Is there anything random at all?   
   >>>>>> I suspect it is just a name for things not yet understood.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Funny thing, I posted this french post awhile ago hoping TH would pick   
   >>>>> up on it.  It's authored by a friend.  It answers your question..   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Let's see if I can manage a quick translation.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> "As it happens, Allah creates the Universe anew every iota of time and   
   >>>>> thus is the existence of any sort of causal relationship impossible in   
   >>>>> the world."   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> On 9/5/2016 2:15 PM, Ahmed Ouahi, Architect wrote :   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> À savoir qu'à chaque atome de temps essentiellement qui s'écoule   
   >>>>>> Allah crée à nouveau le monde tout entier et qu'ainsi n'en puisse-t-il   
   >>>>>> Aucunement exister dans le monde aucune sorte de relation causale   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> The idea that the world is not continuous, but is manifest over and over   
   in   
   >>>> response to the choices of sentient beings everywhere, is one not often   
   >>>> seen.  Your author has concluded that it makes causality impossible, but I   
   >>>> conclude that causality is the very essence of it all.   
   >>>>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> Don't forget Chaos without which human beings would be as boring as   
   >>> robots :)   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> True chaos is the total and absolute absence of order.  In true chaos   
   >> nothing is temporally related to anything, shit just goes on with no rhyme   
   >> or reason, our brains wouldn't work right for a second in true chaos, where   
   >> nothing is related to anything else, and it's all just chaos-soup.  In true   
   >> chaos, humans wouldn't be any more or less boring than the rest of the   
   >> soup, because human bodies are highly ordered; being highly ordered, they   
   >> physically cannot exist in absolute chaos.   
   >>   
   >> At the top of the conceptual pyramid is total order, at the bottom no order   
   >> at all; above is the non-manifest realm, below that the realm we exist in,   
   >> the manifestaton of all that is above, firmly above chaos as evidenced by   
   >> the fact that we can detect order in our environment, sits humanity,   
   >> convinced that the elephant is its leg.   
   >>   
   >> imo.   
   >>   
   >   
   >   
   > You define chaos for the earthly plane.   
      
   I just said what "chaos" means.  Chaos is the absence of order.  True chaos   
   does not exist on the earthly plane.   
      
   > Mine refers to the mathematical   
   > evidence of its unpredictability   
      
   Mathematical evidence is simply that, deriving statistical statements from   
   a history of actual occurrences.  It doesn't say why this or why that, it   
   only says how much.   
      
   > and as a never ending source of all   
   > that's interesting on earth and in the heavens.   
   >   
      
   Chaos does not exist.  Even when you point to this as chaotic and that as   
   ordered, by so doing you have split the universe into two pieces and thus   
   created order.  Chaos and order cannot coexist, pointing at order destroys   
   chaos, which did not exist to begin with if there was order in existence to   
   point at, or anyone to do the pointing.   
      
   Now, assuming (and it's a big assumption) that you can accept that chaos   
   does not exist, what does that do to the inexplicable?  In other words, how   
   does the absence of true chaos fit with the rest of what we know?   We know   
   that things happen unpredictably, how does that fit with the idea that   
   nothing happens without cause or reason?   
      
   Things do not happen "unpredictably", they happen in ways we cannot   
   precisely predict.  They happen for reasons unrelated to mathematical   
   evidence.  Mathematical evidence relates only to the past, and occurrence   
   relates only to the future.  The reasons things happen are mysterious,   
   meaning: they exist in the realm of mystery, which is prior-to and   
   superior-to the realm of manifestation.  If science was perfected and all   
   data for the entirety of the physical universe was stored in some   
   out-of-the-way computer, future events would still not be absolutely   
   predictable.  The reasons for the events wouldn't be visible because events   
   aren't caused by the calculations of some computer that was claimed to   
   contain every fact but could not additionally contain the facts of itself.   
      
   People want absolute predictability, the unpredictable is worrisome to   
   human folks.  They want to know where it came from, whether they can trust   
   it.  They want it tame and scientific.  It does exist. but it is neither   
   tame nor scientific; people want to wish it away, and they think science is   
   a sure-fire tool for that.  It isn't.   
      
   --   
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