XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: wudao@wuji.net   
      
   noname wrote:   
   > {:-]))) wrote:   
   >> Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >>> David Raleigh Arnold wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Because there is no true self or soul, at   
   >>>> some point knowing oneself becomes wallowing   
   >>>> in delusion. You want to know your enemies   
   >>>> instead: lobha, dosa, and moha. Metta, Rale   
   >>>>   
   >>>   
   >>> If you don't have a true self, then you are a fake.   
   >>   
   >> Between having and being might be a not very fine line.   
   >>   
   >> If one does not have a true self, then one might have   
   >> a fake self. Or simply not have any self. Not true nor fake.   
   >>   
   >> If one is a self, then that is at least a portion of what one is.   
   >>   
   >> If one has a true self,   
   >> then what or who is the one that is having it?   
   >>   
   >>> Why is your fake self posting to this newsgroup - trying to correct   
   >>> misapprehensions?   
   >>>   
   >>> A fake self is only going to disseminate misinformation.   
   >>> And if it is spreading lies to a constellation of other fake selves,   
   >>> what on earth is the point?   
   >>   
   >> Sometimes people dance simply to dance.   
   >> When they are selfless they are at ease.   
   >> Unselfconscious they dance as they please.   
   >>   
   >> There is no ultimate point.   
   >> Some would rather the music never ends.   
   >> They aren't trying to get to the other side   
   >> of the floor, as fast as they can.   
   >>   
   >>> Seems to me there *is* at least one person "wallowing in delusion" here.   
   >>>   
   >>> But I agree that our true self, when encountered, may not seem to bear   
   >>> any resemblance to the "soul" as defined by traditional Christianity.   
   >>> For one thing, it can be known to be perfect and unsulliable. Neither   
   >>> dented by experience nor stained by sin. Not punished for being "bad"   
   >>> nor rewarded for being 'good'. Not needing to be 'enlightened', because   
   >>> it is always full of light. Not needing 'liberation' because it is   
   >>> always free. Not needing to be 'saved' because it was never lost. Not   
   >>> needing to be 'awakened' because it never sleeps.   
   >>>   
   >>> It has no enemy except ignorance   
   >>   
   >> One might wonder why such a true self would post here,   
   >> if all true selves are perfect, unsulliable, full of light, free, etc.   
   >> if there would be any point, on earth, or elsewhere.   
   >>   
   >> Unless, the one that has a true self   
   >> is not the true self but something else.   
   >>   
   >> Something that has but not is.   
   >>   
   >   
   >Between a true self and an exterior self might be another line.   
   >   
   >The difference between a true-self that is owned by the exterior-self,   
   >and an exterior-self owned by the true-self,   
   >can be the difference between freedom and slavery.   
   >   
   >The exterior-self is the one society meets at its face,   
   >the true-self is the one left to pay society's dues, at the time and price   
   >of society's pleasure.   
      
   That sounds like a bummer for the true-self.   
      
   I don't think that's the same true self Ummmmmm is referring to.   
      
   I think his is some other true self.   
   One that has no dues to pay, is Scott free,   
   even if taking the highest road, to reach the highest high.   
      
   His is kickin down the cobble stones, and feeling groovy.   
   He's not kicking down doors saying, up against the wall.   
   Except, well, in a manner of his speaking.   
      
   With Taoism, the highest high is said to be not-Tao.   
   Know the yang. Sure. Of course. But keep to the yin.   
   Reaching for the highest high is not advised.   
      
   The best of the best might be another thing   
   that could be the same thing, said another Way.   
      
   Taoist philosophy might be something.   
   I'm not sure what Ummmmmmm would call his shtick.   
      
   He said he's read a bunch of TTCs. Apparently each reader reads   
   what he or she reads in to and gets out of what is read.   
      
   The highest high reminds me of the Tommy album.   
   Yet nothing could be that simple, they said, as they laughed.   
      
   >Society manipulates the exterior-self, to society's advantage.  When the   
   >exterior-self smiles and conforms, society is happy to let the exterior   
   >self do as it pleases.  It is one with society, and the Borg takes care of   
   >its own, as it will, or spends them as fodder, without a care.   
      
   Reminds me of a Christian saying about the world,   
   and how the world knows its own.   
      
   >The exterior-self is where the exterior desires reside.   
   >When the exterior-self wants something, the true self is dragged along for   
   >the ride, happy or not, a passenger within the exterior tinfoil that   
   >society laid down while the true-self was helpless and immature, and such a   
   >true-self can scream all it wants, without being heard on the exterior,   
   >while the exterior self smiles.   
      
   Wow. The true-self is really in quite a fix, in such a paradigm.   
   When the fix is on, to fix the fix can take some fixin.   
      
   >The screaming is what Buddhism calls "suffering".  The tinfoil hat is   
   >scaffolding parents and teachers applied, like the shell of an egg, while   
   >the true-self was helpless and ignorant.   
      
   Poor true-self.   
   It's not at all what Ummmmmmm's child-like true self is. Or   
   what whatever it is that has a true self has.   
   His is out to play, care free. And has fun.   
      
   I'd suppose his fake-self is the exterior-self that dominates   
   what you are calling the true-self. Maybe it fakes other fake selves   
   out in its game of playing true and false, fake and real.   
      
   >  When it outlasts its time, when   
   >the accoutrements drive the self, it is an outgrown shell, a carapace grown   
   >useless, unnecessary, and harmful to the true-self within, preventing its   
   >growth beyond the limits society laid down from childhood, the   
   >exterior-self.   
      
   I like that metaphor, analogy, or what ever it might be called.   
   Process might be a good word to use. To describe an unfolding.   
      
   >When a suit of protective armor takes over and suppresses the true-self, a   
   >conflict between inner and outer arises.  When the exterior-self prevails,   
   >the true-self is locked away to wither and eventually die.  When the   
   >true-self prevails, it properly bursts the shell and hatches to full life   
   >and the freedom called "awakening".   
      
   A wonder of wonders.   
   If only it could be taught by some spiritual master, then Ummmmmmm   
   would be on to something. Or if it could be received, by students,   
   then it might be another or the same thing.   
      
   >There are many cycles the world passes through.  Those who wrote the   
   >I-Ching seemed to think they had those states named, and that there are 64   
   >of them.  That is the eggshell of their philosophy, the part that can be   
   >seen by exterior-selves.  Those who pass through the cycles learn to   
   >recognize them as life continues.   
      
   Some are interested in documenting the cycles.   
   Some like to ride cycles on the Road.   
   Some may say maps are for,   
   whatever they're for.   
      
   >One is the cycle of hatching, where the true-self and the exterior-self   
   >together decide whether the true-self is yet strong enough to show its face   
   >to the world.  When the true-self recognizes a truth, the egg squeezes it   
   >to hold back the unready.  When the true-self is ready, neither the   
   >exterior-self nor the world needs to hold it back any longer.  It bursts   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)