XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: nottony.nokingsbury@ngmail.com   
      
   On 7/10/2016 12:40 PM, {:-]))) wrote:   
   > Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >> {:-]))) wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>> One might wonder why such a true self would post here,   
   >>> if all true selves are perfect, unsulliable, full of light, free, etc.   
   >>> if there would be any point, on earth, or elsewhere.   
   >>   
   >> You misunderstand me.   
   >   
   > I tend to misunderstand most everyone in ways.   
   >   
   >> I'm not pretending to be any of those things.   
   >   
   > I wonder at times about Tang, pretending not to be   
   > what he claims that is he isn't in his disclaimers.   
   >   
   > Perhaps you are both the same. And everything is the same.   
   > Or similar if not the same. In some different ways.   
      
   You love to hide in a mist of word-play and puns. Sometimes it works,   
   mostly it doesn't.   
   If we're to understand each other, let's speak clearly and simply.   
   As Noah said, very wisely I thought "Post humble words, quiet words,   
   without intent."   
      
   And let Tang speak for himself. He's not being attacked, so he doesn't   
   need defending.   
      
   >   
   >> What i call "the true self" is not a vesture, or set of ceremonial   
   >> robes, for the ego to strut around in.   
   >>   
   >> The way some people pretend to be Taoists, or Zennists, or polymath   
   >> scholars.   
   >   
   > Perhaps they are not pretending.   
   > Maybe their true selves are expressing themselves.   
   >   
   > But, one sees them thru a filter.   
   > A mirror of sorts. Maybe.   
   >   
   >> It's not a description of an ideal person, or a saint or a sage.   
   >>   
   >> It's a Presence to be enjoyed, wondered at, delighted in.   
   >> The Presence in the Present.   
   >   
   > Some true selves play for keeps. Very serious. Involved. Totally.   
   >   
   >> It doesn't act.   
   >   
   > Then it can't play.   
      
   Like a cool lake on a hot day, it invites us to play in it. Or as a   
   breeze invites a child to launch a kite.   
      
   > Unless, if it does, wu-wei.   
   >   
   >> It doesn't go anywhere. It's the still point of the   
   >> turning world.It can be heard, seen, tasted, felt.   
   >> It's in every human being.   
   >   
   > Then it's different from every human being.   
   > Being different, no one is one's true self.   
      
   It is different from everything you might think or imagine. Definitions   
   fall off it like water from a duck's back.   
   But your logic is false. Being unique, everyone is one's true self -   
   unless one is projecting a false image and calling it "Me"   
      
   That's why the Master holds up a mirror for us to look into - so we can   
   see past the lies we've been telling ourselves for so long that we've   
   come to half believe them   
      
   >   
   > Just as Tang might say what all spiritual masters all say,   
   > so you may say what is in every human being.   
   >   
   > Not having met every human being, I would presume   
   > that you have not met them all either,   
      
   Not having seen every lake, pond, mirror, diamond, piece of glass on the   
   planet - am I therefore wrong in saying that I know the same sun   
   reflects off all of them?   
      
     just as Tang has not   
   > met every spiritual master and yet, eclectics and syncretists   
   > might all be said to be the same in various ways.   
   >   
   > They might see Taoism as being the same as all other systems.   
   > Or, if they see differences, those differences are ignored   
   > as if they made no difference, to every human being.   
   >   
   > I've heard Tao is in all things.   
   > And I've heard of the center to be held fast to.   
   > I've heard of emptiness, that is the usefulness of uselessness.   
      
   You've heard a lot. What do you *know*?   
   As in "What have you actually experienced?" Hearsay isn't good enough.   
   It doesn't light up ANYTHING.   
      
   >   
   > Zhenren may enter a picture.   
   > Along with Wuji. In a Taoist paradigm.   
   >   
   >> To know it is to know that all histories, dharmas, scriptures, dogmas,   
   >> rituals, intellectual arguments about the nature of reality, are   
   >> irrelevant. They all try to build bridges between the past and the   
   >> future. The true self exists only in the present.   
   >   
   > Some say Tao is God, and they know it   
      
   Let's leave "some" out of it. They're not taking part in this   
   conversation. What do YOU know?   
      
   > in the same way you know all histories, dharmas, scriptures, dogmas,   
   > rituals, intellectual arguments about the nature of reality, are   
   > irrelevant. They try to build bridges between all systems   
   > of thought and know how their true self is the same   
   > as every other true self.   
   >   
   > Every body has a center   
   > of gravity. But it isn't serious. Every one has   
   > a center of balance, which one might lose at times.   
      
   One might drift off the centre of balance, certainly - but the centre   
   always remains, exactly where it was. The trick is to know how to get   
   back to it as quickly as possible.   
      
   >   
   >> It's beyond thought, and beyond imagination - and it's very, very real.   
   >   
   > That might be what Tang says all spiritual masters say.   
   > Or maybe he is pointing to something else. Some other Way.   
      
   I'm not talking about a Way. A "Way" implies a journey. Not liking where   
   one is, one wishes to be somewhere else.   
   I'm talking about being where one is.   
      
   >   
   > To say one has a true self is something some say.   
   > If so, one may wonder who or what is it that has it.   
      
   Just word-juggling. Some may say the bird is the yolk, some may say the   
   bird is the white. You can smash as many eggs as you like, you won't   
   find out. But if you keep it warm & let it hatch, it may sing to you.   
      
   >   
   >> Because it's in everyone, it can be known by anyone.   
   >   
   > If it's in everyone, then no one is it.   
   > It's different from everyone. If so, then who or what one is   
   > might be a question that could be asked of one who knows   
   > how one has a true self that is within one and everyone.   
      
   Don't prevaricate :-) Are you asking the question or not?   
      
   >   
   >> There are no   
   >> barriers of race, sex, belief, education, economic status, age.   
   >>   
   >> The point of posting here is not to tell you anything new, but to remind   
   >> you of something you may have forgotten.   
   >> You knew it way back then, when life was fun.   
   >   
   > My life is unusually fun, at times.   
   > Usually every day. Especially at three in the morning.   
   >   
   > I tend to be reminded of it every time I post here   
   > after reading what everyone has posted here.   
   >   
   > The games here vary in various ways. Some point to Tao.   
   > Some say everyone is the same in some way, or Way.   
   > Some may say each is the Way, or something else.   
   >   
   > Some might say one has the Way.   
   > Or one has a Way. That it's all the same Way.   
   >   
   > What and how everyone says what everyone says   
   > tends to be a ping, a sounding board on a board   
   > full of pings, and sometimes a pong or two.   
   >   
   >>> Unless, the one that has a true self   
   >>> is not the true self but something else.   
   >>>   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)