XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: invalid@invalid.invalid   
      
   Ummmmmmm  wrote:   
   > On 7/10/2016 12:40 PM, {:-]))) wrote:   
   >> Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >>> {:-]))) wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>> One might wonder why such a true self would post here,   
   >>>> if all true selves are perfect, unsulliable, full of light, free, etc.   
   >>>> if there would be any point, on earth, or elsewhere.   
   >>>   
   >>> You misunderstand me.   
   >>   
   >> I tend to misunderstand most everyone in ways.   
   >>   
   >>> I'm not pretending to be any of those things.   
   >>   
   >> I wonder at times about Tang, pretending not to be   
   >> what he claims that is he isn't in his disclaimers.   
   >>   
   >> Perhaps you are both the same. And everything is the same.   
   >> Or similar if not the same. In some different ways.   
   >   
   > You love to hide in a mist of word-play and puns. Sometimes it works,   
   > mostly it doesn't.   
   > If we're to understand each other, let's speak clearly and simply.   
   > As Noah said, very wisely I thought "Post humble words, quiet words,   
   > without intent."   
   >   
   > And let Tang speak for himself. He's not being attacked, so he doesn't   
   > need defending.   
   >   
   >>   
   >>> What i call "the true self" is not a vesture, or set of ceremonial   
   >>> robes, for the ego to strut around in.   
   >>>   
   >>> The way some people pretend to be Taoists, or Zennists, or polymath   
   >>> scholars.   
   >>   
   >> Perhaps they are not pretending.   
   >> Maybe their true selves are expressing themselves.   
   >>   
   >> But, one sees them thru a filter.   
   >> A mirror of sorts. Maybe.   
   >>   
   >>> It's not a description of an ideal person, or a saint or a sage.   
   >>>   
   >>> It's a Presence to be enjoyed, wondered at, delighted in.   
   >>> The Presence in the Present.   
   >>   
   >> Some true selves play for keeps. Very serious. Involved. Totally.   
   >>   
   >>> It doesn't act.   
   >>   
   >> Then it can't play.   
   >   
   > Like a cool lake on a hot day, it invites us to play in it. Or as a   
   > breeze invites a child to launch a kite.   
   >   
   >> Unless, if it does, wu-wei.   
   >>   
   >>> It doesn't go anywhere. It's the still point of the   
   >>> turning world.It can be heard, seen, tasted, felt.   
   >>> It's in every human being.   
   >>   
   >> Then it's different from every human being.   
   >> Being different, no one is one's true self.   
   >   
   > It is different from everything you might think or imagine. Definitions   
   > fall off it like water from a duck's back.   
   > But your logic is false. Being unique, everyone is one's true self -   
   > unless one is projecting a false image and calling it "Me"   
   >   
   > That's why the Master holds up a mirror for us to look into - so we can   
   > see past the lies we've been telling ourselves for so long that we've   
   > come to half believe them   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Just as Tang might say what all spiritual masters all say,   
   >> so you may say what is in every human being.   
   >>   
   >> Not having met every human being, I would presume   
   >> that you have not met them all either,   
   >   
   > Not having seen every lake, pond, mirror, diamond, piece of glass on the   
   > planet - am I therefore wrong in saying that I know the same sun   
   > reflects off all of them?   
   >   
   >  just as Tang has not   
   >> met every spiritual master and yet, eclectics and syncretists   
   >> might all be said to be the same in various ways.   
   >>   
   >> They might see Taoism as being the same as all other systems.   
   >> Or, if they see differences, those differences are ignored   
   >> as if they made no difference, to every human being.   
   >>   
   >> I've heard Tao is in all things.   
   >> And I've heard of the center to be held fast to.   
   >> I've heard of emptiness, that is the usefulness of uselessness.   
   >   
   > You've heard a lot. What do you *know*?   
   > As in "What have you actually experienced?" Hearsay isn't good enough.   
   > It doesn't light up ANYTHING.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Zhenren may enter a picture.   
   >> Along with Wuji. In a Taoist paradigm.   
   >>   
   >>> To know it is to know that all histories, dharmas, scriptures, dogmas,   
   >>> rituals, intellectual arguments about the nature of reality, are   
   >>> irrelevant. They all try to build bridges between the past and the   
   >>> future. The true self exists only in the present.   
   >>   
   >> Some say Tao is God, and they know it   
   >   
   > Let's leave "some" out of it. They're not taking part in this   
   > conversation. What do YOU know?   
   >   
   >> in the same way you know all histories, dharmas, scriptures, dogmas,   
   >> rituals, intellectual arguments about the nature of reality, are   
   >> irrelevant. They try to build bridges between all systems   
   >> of thought and know how their true self is the same   
   >> as every other true self.   
   >>   
   >> Every body has a center   
   >> of gravity. But it isn't serious. Every one has   
   >> a center of balance, which one might lose at times.   
   >   
   > One might drift off the centre of balance, certainly - but the centre   
   > always remains, exactly where it was. The trick is to know how to get   
   > back to it as quickly as possible.   
      
   There's no hurry, no need to get back "as quickly as possible".  No   
   stopwatch is necessary.  The world isn't going anyplace, when you're ready   
   to meet it as you truly are, that's the time.  Measuring time is simply not   
   useful, once you've measured time you have a number, not the time you've   
   wasted time measuring in order to get a number you can point at to convince   
   yourself you know what's going on.   
      
   What I have observed is that when you reside in harmony with Tao, time   
   adjusts itself to your needs.  For example if it is winter and the   
   generator is broken and must be repaired, it's easy to get all frantic and   
   screw things up worse than they were to begin with.  "Ohmygawd if this   
   doesn't get fixed we're all gonna die" might actually be a correct   
   perception, but if you get caught up in it, you'd probably be better off   
   taking a nap in the cold before you start working on the manifestation of   
   the problem.  Because that's all it is, the non-working generator isn't the   
   problem, it's only a manifestation of the problem, a symptom.  Until you   
   see through the manifestation to the problem that is manifesting, you're   
   going through the motions without making any real change; the problem, the   
   real problem, the root of the malfunction, is not mechanical.  On the other   
   hand, if you simply work the wrenches, falling into harmony as you go, that   
   keeps your fake-self, the exterior-self that others can see, the work keeps   
   that self busy and out of your face while your true-self ponders the real   
   problem.   
      
   >   
   >>   
   >>> It's beyond thought, and beyond imagination - and it's very, very real.   
   >>   
   >> That might be what Tang says all spiritual masters say.   
   >> Or maybe he is pointing to something else. Some other Way.   
   >   
   > I'm not talking about a Way. A "Way" implies a journey. Not liking where   
   > one is, one wishes to be somewhere else.   
   > I'm talking about being where one is.   
      
   Being where you are is a journey of-itself.   
      
   >   
   >>   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)