XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: wudao@wuji.net   
      
   Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   > {:-]))) wrote:   
   >> Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >   
   >> If you want to talk with me, personally, you might not assume   
   >> whatever it is you are assuming about me.   
   >>   
   >> I don't think you have any secret that I don't.   
   >>   
   >> What gave you that impression?   
   >   
   >You did.   
      
   How so?   
      
   Are you certain I did?   
   And that your impression is correct?   
   That how you see me is how I actually am?   
      
   >Chuang Tzu had a secret too."Better to abandon disputation and seek the   
   >True Light" (ii. 3)   
   >   
   >My secret is, that the true light still shines. That it is in you. That   
   >it can be seen.   
      
   If it is in me, and you can see it, then why dispute it?   
      
   You are not making very much sense.   
      
   You seem to be having some odd thoughts going on   
   as you fabricate your story about me.   
      
   >It's not a 3000 year old idea, it's a present, actual fact.   
      
   And you can see it, in me.   
   So what's the big deal about the age of a book?   
      
   >That seeing it brings enlightenment. Enables one to grasp the pivot, the   
   >centre of the wheel.The Presence in the present.   
      
   Sure. No problem.   
   What gives you the impression I'm not aware of the Presence   
   in the present? Or the pivot, the center?   
      
   Did I not use some proper words that are acceptable to you?   
      
   >Although I have said it out loud, this will remain a secret. You will   
   >demand to know "How do I know you don't have it?"   
      
   You seemed to say I don't. Then you said I did.   
      
   Now you are saying what I am going to demand,   
   but I am not demanding that at all.   
      
   If everyone has it, then I have it.   
      
   You seem to me to be rather confused.   
      
   >Chuang Tzu had an answer to that one too.   
   >   
   >"The men of old took what they really knew   
   >  With them to the grave   
   >  And so what you read in Chuang Tzu   
   >  Is just the dirt he left behind him" (xii, 10)   
   >   
   >So how do I know that you don't have it?   
   >Actually, I know that you do.   
      
   Then why say what you said, that I was going to demand   
   how you know that I don't when you know I do?   
      
   You already said I have it. And I agreed with you.   
      
   You seem to be setting up some straw man, called, you.   
   And then you knock down this, you, that you created.   
      
   That you, I have asked you, if you mean me.   
   Or if you are talking to yourself. And you mean you.   
   Or someone else.   
      
   Do other people tell you you talk funny?   
      
   >Truth is so close to you - Lao & Chang are so far away.   
   >Far away, and laughing.   
   >But not at you, of course - at me. For being so stupid.   
      
   Are you familiar with the happy fish story?   
      
   Zz knew the fish were happy.   
   Your story kinda reminds me of that, except it doesn't.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)