XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: nottony.nokingsbury@ngmail.com   
      
   On 10/10/2016 3:37 PM, {:-]))) wrote:   
   > Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >> {:-]))) wrote:   
   >>> Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> If you want to talk with me, personally, you might not assume   
   >>> whatever it is you are assuming about me.   
   >>>   
   >>> I don't think you have any secret that I don't.   
   >>>   
   >>> What gave you that impression?   
   >>   
   >> You did.   
   >   
   > How so?   
   >   
   > Are you certain I did?   
   > And that your impression is correct?   
   > That how you see me is how I actually am?   
      
   I see only what you write.   
   Either that is honest - in which case the impression I get of you is   
   'correct'.   
   Or it is fake - you are projecting an image of yourself which you would   
   like others to accept as 'you'.   
      
   Tell me which it is - and I will be able to calibrate my 'certainty'   
   accordingly.   
      
   >   
   >> Chuang Tzu had a secret too."Better to abandon disputation and seek the   
   >> True Light" (ii. 3)   
   >>   
   >> My secret is, that the true light still shines. That it is in you. That   
   >> it can be seen.   
   >   
   > If it is in me, and you can see it, then why dispute it?   
      
   I have only your writings to look at - and in those I see only a lot of   
   shadows, and very little light.   
      
   >   
   > You are not making very much sense.   
   >   
   > You seem to be having some odd thoughts going on   
   > as you fabricate your story about me.   
   >   
   >> It's not a 3000 year old idea, it's a present, actual fact.   
   >   
   > And you can see it, in me.   
      
   I can't see it, but i know it's there - for the simple reason that I   
   know you're alive, and the light of awareness is an essential component   
   of life.   
      
   You seem to think this is a "generalisation" and therefore can be safely   
   ignored. But it isn't, it's a simple fact. Like I know that water is   
   made up of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. Do I have to look at   
   every bit of water on the surface of the planet to know that this is true?   
      
   > So what's the big deal about the age of a book?   
      
   It's a very small deal. The light shines only in the present. The book   
   is an artifact from the past. It's not alive. There's no light in it.   
      
   >   
   >> That seeing it brings enlightenment. Enables one to grasp the pivot, the   
   >> centre of the wheel.The Presence in the present.   
   >   
   > Sure. No problem.   
   > What gives you the impression I'm not aware of the Presence   
   > in the present? Or the pivot, the center?   
      
   Your posts.   
      
   >   
   > Did I not use some proper words that are acceptable to you?   
   >   
   >> Although I have said it out loud, this will remain a secret. You will   
   >> demand to know "How do I know you don't have it?"   
   >   
   > You seemed to say I don't. Then you said I did.   
   >   
   > Now you are saying what I am going to demand,   
   > but I am not demanding that at all.   
   >   
   > If everyone has it, then I have it.   
   >   
   > You seem to me to be rather confused.   
   >   
   >> Chuang Tzu had an answer to that one too.   
   >>   
   >> "The men of old took what they really knew   
   >>  With them to the grave   
   >>  And so what you read in Chuang Tzu   
   >>  Is just the dirt he left behind him" (xii, 10)   
   >>   
   >> So how do I know that you don't have it?   
   >> Actually, I know that you do.   
   >   
   > Then why say what you said, that I was going to demand   
   > how you know that I don't when you know I do?   
   >   
   > You already said I have it. And I agreed with you.   
   >   
   > You seem to be setting up some straw man, called, you.   
   > And then you knock down this, you, that you created.   
   >   
   > That you, I have asked you, if you mean me.   
   > Or if you are talking to yourself. And you mean you.   
   > Or someone else.   
      
   One of us is confused. I'm happy to accept that it's me.   
   D--. Must try harder.   
      
   >   
   > Do other people tell you you talk funny?   
      
      
      
   >   
   >> Truth is so close to you - Lao & Chang are so far away.   
   >> Far away, and laughing.   
   >> But not at you, of course - at me. For being so stupid.   
   >   
   > Are you familiar with the happy fish story?   
   >   
   > Zz knew the fish were happy.   
   > Your story kinda reminds me of that, except it doesn't.   
      
   ???? Ditto.   
   E-. Needs to pay more attention   
   Give me time - I'll get to the point where this sort of thing makes sense.   
   >   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)