XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: wudao@wuji.net   
      
   Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   > {:-]))) wrote:   
   >> Ummmmmmm wrote:   
   >>> {:-]))) had enquired:   
   >>>   
   >>>> If your, so-called, living Master dies, are you then up shit creek?   
   >>>   
   >>> Of course not. What the Master has given me, is the ability to access a   
   >>> part of me that I've always had. How could his death take that away from   
   me?   
   >>   
   >> If your living Master wrote a book, but is now dead, hypothetically,   
   >> would you be able to get anything out of that book?   
   >> Seeing as how you have the ability to access   
   >> a part of you that you always had.   
   >   
   >If he writes a book, and if he dies, I'll read it & see if I get   
   >anything out of it. What's the point of proposing hypothetical answers   
   >to hypothetical questions? I'm into experiencing the truth, not   
   >theorising about it.   
      
   I was into talking about Taoism, but you didn't seem to care to.   
      
   The point of proposing hypothetical questions is to converse.   
   You appeared to me to be happy to converse about a few things.   
      
   It appears that you don't approve of old books in terms of anyone,   
   ever, getting any sort of light or enlightenment out of them.   
      
   I was asking if the age of the book matters.   
      
   You seemed very adamant about old books.   
      
   So, I created a scenario to talk about, to converse about,   
   to explore whether you thought something was possible.   
      
   To see how far your Knowing might go.   
      
   >>>> Does he need to remain alive at all times, physically?   
   >>>   
   >>> I'm sure there is always at least one Master alive on the planet. It   
   >>> would be a cruel world if we were each given a gift at birth, with no   
   >>> means of unwrapping it.   
   >>   
   >> What if you lived to be a thousand years old, hypothetically,   
   >> and your living Master had given you the ability to access a   
   >> part of you that you have always had, and she, or he,   
   >> wrote a book, a thousand years ago, and you   
   >> were able to get, what you always had,   
   >> out of that book, would it be dead?   
   >> To you? For you? All gone?   
   >   
   >When I'm a thousand years old, I'll let you know.   
   >But if you and I are going to be around in a thousand years time, it   
   >seems likely that the Master will be too, so the question won't arise.   
      
   Suppose your living Master wrote a book, yesterday.   
      
   Would you be able to see any light shining out of it?   
      
   Is that too difficult a hypothetical question for you?   
      
   Does your living Master write books?   
      
   You mentioned a website.   
      
   When you go there, is it a dead website?   
   All that are there are words on a screen.   
   Words written in the past.   
      
   Has the life gone out of them?   
      
   >> Would the book, in other words, remain alive, to you?   
   >>   
   >> Or is such a figure of speech anathema?   
   >>   
   >> You seemed to me to be saying all books written by   
   >> living Masters, long since dead, contain nothing.   
   >   
   >They are fossilized footprints in rock strata. They point to the fact   
   >that way back then there may have been mammals that gave milk, and ducks   
   >that could be roasted. Interesting, in their own way.   
   >But if you're hungry & thirsty - you can't eat or drink a fossil.   
      
   If you're hungry, and go to your living Master's website,   
   since whatever words written on them were written in the past,   
   do any of the words there satisfy you?   
      
   Or must you be in her presence, physically, to be fed?   
      
   Or, having once been fed, you never get hungry?   
      
   >> Don't look at them. Stay away from them.   
   >> Danger. Danger. Danger.   
   >   
   >Look at them as much as you like. The only danger is that you will try   
   >to extract nourishment from them. You'll slowly starve to death.   
      
   I find that to be not the case.   
      
   Yet, perhaps that is true for you.   
      
   Nothing in any book is able to feed you. Period.   
      
   Is that what you're saying? Really?   
      
   For me, in my experience, lots of books feed me.   
   I can find answers to questions in many places.   
   Most anything can spark a eureka moment.   
      
   There's an old saying about when someone is ready.   
   And another that the guru is everywhere.   
      
   >> Since your living Master wrote the words, in the book,   
   >> and she, or he, gave you the ability to access a part   
   >> of you that you've always had, could you see anything   
   >> in the book? Find anything, in the book? She/he wrote?   
   >>   
   >> Hypothetically speaking.   
   >>   
   >> It seems as if, even though you have accessed a part of you   
   >> that you've always had, you can't see it in a book.   
   >   
   >No part of me is in a book. To see it I have to look within me. All the   
   >books are outside of me.   
      
   So is the living Master outside of you.   
      
   If what is outside of you can't spark anything inside,   
   then your living Master would not have been able to.   
      
   You seem to be saying that only a living Master has   
   what could be called, spark-power. No books.   
   Not for you. Not for anyone. Ever.   
      
   And, that you Know this for a fact.   
      
   Is that what you're saying?   
      
   The reason I keep asking, is that you don't seem to answer.   
      
   Sometimes you do. Then you seem to shift position a bit.   
      
   Does that make you a shifty character?   
      
   >> Or, you can.         But other's can't.   
   >>   
   >> Or, if you are looking for enlightenment, in a book,   
   >> it won't work, because, even though it's in everyone,   
   >> and it's all around, everywhere, it isn't in a book.   
   >>   
   >> Can you see the logical problem there?   
   >   
   >You've invented the logical problem.   
      
   Sometimes that happens during a conversation.   
      
   You had mentioned logic, previously.   
      
   And so, I was presenting logic in response.   
      
   >I'm talking about a living light. A light that shines within living   
   >beings. A book isn't a living being. It can't walk or sing or smile or   
   >make love. A book can contain ideas, and so can your mind - that's where   
   >the confusion arises. But truth isn't an idea, it's an experience. Books   
   >can't feel. They don't experience anything.   
      
   Okay.   
      
   >A book can't tell you if you're understanding it right, or if it's been   
   >translated correctly.   
      
   Of course not. Your understanding is inside of you.   
   It's inside of everyone, as far as you have said you Know.   
      
   What something means, to you,   
   is what it means, to you.   
      
   > But if a Master speaks to you, he can know if   
   >you're understanding him or not, and correct you if necessary.   
      
   Understanding him.   
      
   And correct you to see what he, or she, sees.   
   As he or she understands whatever is being transmitted.   
      
   Just as I might know if you're understanding me,   
   if we continue to converse long enough.   
      
   Or you might know if I understand you in the same way.   
      
   That's why I keep asking, over and over,   
   to make sure I understand what you're saying.   
      
   But that does not exclude the possibility   
   that an understanding is not obtained from in a book.   
      
   Did your living Master tell you that you can only get   
   the very same understanding that is in everyone   
   from another living Master?   
      
   Is that where you got that idea?   
      
   >That's why the experience of the living light has to be transmitted to a   
   >living student by a real live walking-talking LivingMaster.   
      
   I think I see what you are saying.   
      
   In order to be sure that a student understands a teacher,   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)