XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: wudao@wuji.net   
      
   dagnabit observed:   
   >Ned wrote:   
   >   
   >>  There is no 'ding an sich', there is only pratityasamutpada.   
      
   To presuppose an is, is, is to presuppose.   
   It's cans be called a given, axiomatically.   
      
   >in the context of how we perceive time in linear   
   >subsequence only.   
      
   To suppose there is a world, and there are things in it.   
   And these, so-called, things, depend on each other,   
   one can suppose and see that is how all-things are.   
      
   Or one may see and suppose, that is how all-things are.   
      
   > when time, the initial slippery   
   >concept, is absent from any number of scenarios,   
   >i.e., dreams, imagination, hallucination, etc.,   
   >dependency initializes into the cause of everything   
   >being merely itself. everything is then its own cause   
   >independent of everything else's own self cause.   
      
   That sounds very much akin if not identical to ziran (tzu-jan).   
      
   Such a view still holds there are things,   
   but these so-called things are self-so of themselves.   
      
   To see the world as an uncarved whole, pu,   
   without any so-called things, could be to see its body.   
   Which is to say, what is called, its body. And   
   it is not other-than.   
      
   To think one's arms or toes are self-so may be thought.   
      
   One's fingers and nose may grow and change   
   yet to think there are causes or they are other-than   
   the body as a whole can be to yet-think.   
      
   At times a scene is seen how the universe and I are not-one.   
   Nor are we not-two, nor not-three, nor not-many.   
      
   Percept ions dew   
   In deeds vary   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)