XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: invalid@invalid.invalid   
      
   {:-])))  wrote:   
   > brian wrote and asked:   
   >> {:-]))) wrote about how:   
   >>   
   >>> Taoism may suggest uncarving, unlearning, forgetting,   
   >>> and returning to a still-point within a center of a center.   
   >>   
   >> Which, of course, would also mean unlearning Taoism.   
   >   
   > Once a technique has served its purpose   
   > it can be returned to the chest it is kept within.   
   >   
   >> Is it possible,   
   >> in a practical living sense, to experience without any framework   
   >> whatsoever? This would be Tang's "unestablished mind", but can one   
   >> live in the fractious world that way, or must one lock oneself in an   
   >> ivory tower for that?   
   >   
   > With wu-wei, I'd say, yes, of course.   
   > With ziran, again, I'd say, naturally.   
   >   
   > When one is spontaneous, there is no thought involved   
   > while one is involved in being spontaneous. I'd call it, wu-xin.   
   > There are no second-thoughts occuring in the heart-mind.   
      
   I'm not even sure there are first-thoughts occurring during spontaneity, I   
   think it comes straight from the heavenly/abstract/actuality of the true   
   self, direct from essential-nature to done, without even choice-of-will   
   being involved.  But that's just my take on it in my words, go figure.   
      
   >   
   > People are in that dao-zone quite often, mostly all ways,   
   > yet, being such a state, may not be aware of it,   
   > to what degree they are in it, etc.   
   >   
   > Before and after a so-called, event,   
   > carved out of all the flowing wings of all events,   
   > one might take a step in any direction, out of the river.   
   >   
   > And then, invent paradigms for the making   
   > of stories told to tell of tales for a spell in the telling.   
   >   
   > One may cling to the definitions of the words used.   
   > Or, see how narrow a mind is that defines them.   
      
   Or one may touch a frog and see whether it jumps, or says "hey, watch it!"   
      
   (Just make sure the frog isn't a tittie!)   
      
   >   
   > Some are camels attempting to pass thru an eye   
   > of a guy making tents with a nose for getting under   
   > standing in the shallow water making a splash.   
      
   Some shamans hear voices in the sound of their pee-tinkles, just like   
   schizophrenics, go figure.   
      
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