XPost: alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: tanghuyen@gmail.com   
      
   On 11/9/2016 6:39 PM, brian mitchell wrote:   
      
   > The key term here is 'discourse'.   
   >   
   > The compilations of public cases, like the Gateless gate or Blue Cliff   
   > Records, are rather like the action replays on sports tv, where they   
   > concentrate exclusively on the goal, the touchdown, the match point,   
   > which are the spectacular culmination of a lengthy process.   
   > Intellectual engagement with, and exploration of, the Dharma, study of   
   > the sutras, and so on, weren't discouraged in Buddhist monasteries,   
   > far from it, even though the essence lies outside thought. I don't   
   > think it was the *relative* nature of anything in speech or thought   
   > that was in the masters' sights, so much as the total incapacity of   
   > thought to approach that which begins where thought ends.   
   >   
   > [snip]   
   >   
   > But I think you'd acknowledge that a student has to be at a particular   
   > pitch of one-pointed readiness before such mind hits could have any   
   > effect. I doubt any masters spouted nonsense simply for the empty sake   
   > of it.   
      
   Another whopper. "I doubt any masters spouted nonsense   
   simply for the empty sake of it."   
      
   I am not qualified to judge, but suspect that at least some   
   recorded discourse is exactly "spouted nonsense simply   
   for the empty sake of it." That is very felicitous wording,   
   for a very felicitous method (dharma).   
      
   If "the essence lies outside thought", to spout utter   
   nonsense would be an effective way to point at such   
   essence (though the word essence is not felicitous), by   
   way of reducing speech and thought to inanity. Iow, "to   
   impress on their students the relative nature of anything   
   in speech and thought," the masters would exactly "spout   
   nonsense simply for the empty sake of it." Emptiness   
   answers emptiness, back and forth. "Vanity of vanities".   
      
   Not just for the students present on the occasion, but for   
   everybody who may hear or read the recorded sayings.   
   That is why there are records.   
      
   Contrariwise, in Jewish mythology, all teachings are   
   purportedly "graven on stone tablets", so that the words   
   are valid in and of themselves, as perfect and permanent   
   condensations of the divine will. Every word is true flat-out,   
   and cannot be taken as symbolic or in an idealistic manner.   
   In such milieu, it would indeed be true that the prophets   
   would never "spout nonsense simply for the empty sake of   
   it." Except for the Ecclesiastes, of course. Hehe.   
      
   I have accused Neddie, noname dears of being realist,   
   literalist and followers of Jewish mythology. You fall neatly   
   into the same class. None of the three of you methinks has   
   ever any glimmer of the message of Oriental philosophy,   
   regardless of externalities.   
      
   Unintended humour is the best humour. Thank you for your   
   numerous contributions. It may behoove to record them for   
   posterity. They are precious -- real hits -- specially as they   
   are directly in English.   
      
   Tang Huyen   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)