XPost: alt.messianic, alt.bible   
   From: a202010@lycos.com   
      
   i still think there's not enough emphasis placed   
   on the difference between "shagagah" and "ruwm"   
      
   where "shagagah" is spoken of concerning ignorance   
   or unintentional trespass and "ruwm" is spoken of   
   concerning presumptuous or grossly intentional   
   trespass with an eye towards raising YHWH   
   to outright scorn. (Numbers 15)   
      
   and i mean, it seems to me, that this "ruwm" has   
   got to be really really egregious before -anyone-   
   should even think about picking up rocks   
   to buss' people upside the head.   
      
   =because= we have a prophet of YHWH, namely Ezekiel   
   suggesting that an outright "wicked" individual, who   
   has already carried out death penalty infractions,   
   =can= turn from his "wicked" way and have his 'sins'   
   remembered no more.   
      
      
   ==   
   Exodus 19:7-9   
      
   So Moses came and called for   
   the elders of the people, and laid   
   before them all these words which   
   YehFeh commanded him.  Then all   
   the people answered together and said,   
   "All that YehFeh has spoken we will do."   
   So Moses brought back the words of the   
   people to YehFeh.  And YehFeh said   
   to Moses, "Behold, I come to you in the   
   thick cloud, that the people may hear   
   when I speak with you, and believe   
   you forever." So Moses told the words   
   of the people to YehFeh.   
   ==   
      
      
   they all agree to abide in this Law;   
   and then, as part of what they have agreed to   
   if transgression is unintentional /or/ "shagagah"   
   as opposed to scornfully impudent  /or/ "ruwm"  ;   
      
   ==   
   Numbers 15:22-31   
      
   "'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands   
   YHWH gave Moses any of YHWH's commands to you through him, from   
   the day YHWH gave them and continuing through the generations to come   
   and if this is done unintentionally without the community being   
   aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull   
   for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to YHWH, along with its   
   prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat   
   for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole   
   Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not   
   intentional and they have brought to YHWH for their wrong an   
   offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite   
   community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven,   
   because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.   
      
   "'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring   
   a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to   
   make atonement before YHWH for the one who erred by sinning   
   unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him,   
   he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone   
   who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite   
   or an alien.   
      
      
   "'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born    (ruwm)   
   or alien, blasphemes YHWH, and that person must be   
   cut off from his people. Because he has despised   
   YHWH's word and broken his commands, that person must   
   surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.' "   
   ==   
      
   and then we turn to the prophet;   
      
   ==   
   Ezekiel 18:1-30   
      
   The word of YHWH came to me:   
   "What do you people mean by quoting   
   this proverb about the land of Israel:   
      
   "'The fathers eat sour grapes,   
   and the children's teeth are set on edge'?   
      
   "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign YHWH,   
   you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.   
   For every living soul belongs to me, the father   
   as well as the son both alike belong to me.   
   The soul who sins is the one who will die."   
      
   "Suppose there is a righteous man   
      who does what is just and right.   
      
      
   He does not eat at the mountain shrines   
   or look to the idols of the house of Israel.   
   He does not defile his neighbor's wife   
   or lie with a woman during her period.   
      
   He does not oppress anyone,   
   but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.   
   He does not commit robbery   
   but gives his food to the hungry   
   and provides clothing for the naked.   
      
   He does not lend at usury   
   or take excessive interest.   
   He withholds his hand from doing wrong   
   and judges fairly between man and man.   
      
   He follows my decrees   
   and faithfully keeps my laws.   
   That man is righteous;   
   he will surely live,   
   declares the Sovereign YehFeh.   
      
      
   <...>   
      
   "Suppose he has a violent son, who   
   sheds blood or does any of these   
   other things (though the father   
   has done none of them):   
      
          <...11-13 chorus...>   
      
   Will such a man live? He will not!   
   Because he has done all these detestable   
   things, he will surely be put to death   
   and his blood will be on his own head.   
      
      
   "But suppose this son has a son who   
   sees all the sins his father commits,   
   and though he sees them, he does not   
   do such things:   
      
           <...15-17 chorus...>   
      
   He will not die for his father's sin;   
   he will surely live. But his father   
   will die for his own sin, because he   
   practiced extortion, robbed his brother   
   and did what was wrong among his people.   
      
      
      
   "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share   
   the guilt of his father?' Since the son   
   has done what is just and right and has   
   been careful to keep all my decrees,   
   he will surely live.   
      
   The soul who sins is the one who will die.   
   The son will not share the guilt of the father,   
   nor will the father share the guilt of the son.   
   The righteousness of the righteous man will be   
   credited to him, and the wickedness   
   of the wicked will be charged against him.   
      
      
             <<<>>>   
      
      
   "But if a wicked man turns away from all   
   the sins he has committed and keeps all   
   my decrees and does what is just and right,   
   he will surely live; he will not die.   
      
   None of the offenses he has committed   
   will be remembered against him. Because   
   of the righteous things he has done,   
   he will live.   
      
   Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?   
   declares the Sovereign YHWH. Rather, am I not   
   pleased when they turn from their ways and live?   
   ==   
      
      
      
   to notice first, the people have had   
   the Law read to them, and they all   
   agree to carry it out, [exodus 19:7-9]   
      
   and we see a stipulation;   
      
   [Numbers 15:22-31] also see Leviticus 4   
      
   that maintains that an individual or a crowd   
   can transgress this law "unintentionally"   
   or by 'accident' and be forgiven,   
   and not stoned.   
      
   shagagah (in ignorance) as opposed to ruwm (presumtuously)   
      
   and we see that this is so, because in Ezekiel 18   
   YHWH says in no uncertain terms that a 'wicked' man,   
   -can- 'turn from his wickedness' and be forgiven and   
   his sins remembered no more.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)