From: me22over7@gmail.com   
      
   On 14/03/2025 12:33 am, Martin Harran wrote:   
   > On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 15:18:54 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >   
   >> On 12/03/2025 11:57 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 07:04:31 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On 12/03/2025 12:51 am, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 23:25:24 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On 11/03/2025 4:54 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On 2025-03-10 11:13:56 +0000, MarkE said:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> On 10/03/2025 6:27 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 15:14:27 +1100, MarkE    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/2025 8:59 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2025 17:48:41 +1100, MarkE    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> [...]   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> You're finally getting it! To creatures like us, special creation   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> by God   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> looks like magic, yes. God conceives in his mind and speaks into   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> ""Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth,   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and   
   >>>>>>>>>>> orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions,   
   about   
   >>>>>>>>>>> the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the   
   years   
   >>>>>>>>>>> and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so   
   >>>>>>>>>>> forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason   
   and   
   >>>>>>>>>>> experience.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> "Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to   
   hear a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking   
   >>>>>>>>>>> nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent   
   such   
   >>>>>>>>>>> an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance   
   in a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Christian and laugh it to scorn."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> St Augustine   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Augustine is referring to the _what_, not the _how_, right?   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> He is referring to exactly what you are doing.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Once again we disagree.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> You may like to imagine you are disagreeing with Martin, but it's quite   
   >>>>>>> clear to me that you are disagreeing with St Auustine, probably because   
   >>>>>>> you haven't bothered to try to understand his point.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> My understanding is Augustine is warning that if Christians claim the   
   >>>>>> Bible teaches something demonstrably false about the natural world, it   
   >>>>>> brings Christianity into disrepute and invites ridicule from educated   
   >>>>>> non-believers.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> If my understanding is correct, then it's not applicable here, since I'm   
   >>>>>> making no claims of or reference to the Bible.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Are you seriously claiming that speaking things into life is not a   
   >>>>> reference to the Bible?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> My bad, I'd lost track of the context, I thought it was in relation to NS.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> "speaking things into life" is a reference to the book of Genesis,   
   >>>   
   >>> So you are doing exactly what St. Augustine warned about.   
   >>   
   >> No, I'm not.   
   >   
   > You are rejecting scientific explanation and quoting from the Bible as   
   > an alternative explanation. How is that not what St. Augustine warned   
   > about?   
   >   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>> so   
   >>>> I'll modify my response to say that this far from "demonstrably false".   
   >>>> It is orthodox Christian teaching,   
   >>>   
   >>> Name one mainstream denomination that teaches that 'speaking into   
   >>> life' should be taken literally and evolution dismissed.   
   >>   
   >> As I've said before, members of various denominations subscribe to a   
   >> range of interpretations of the biblical account, ALL of which involve   
   >> God creating, i.e. "speaking into existence":   
   >   
   > Do any of the mainstream denominations take "speaking into existence"   
   > literally as you do?   
   >   
   >>   
   >> 1. TE (front-loaded)	God speaks into initial conditions   
   >> 2. TE (Martin Harran)	God speaks ???   
   >> 3. TE (guided)		God speaks into being gradually   
   >> 4. Progressive Creation	God speaks into being progressively   
   >> 5. OEC/YEC/ID		God speaks into being directly/other   
   >>   
   >> "And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds   
   >> fly above the earth across the vault of the sky." So God created the   
   >> great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water   
   >> teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every   
   >> winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."   
   >> (Genesis 1:20-21)   
   >   
   > So you are a Bible literalist. I'm glad we got that much clarified.   
      
   How did you get "Bible literalist" from my list of mostly non-literal   
   interpretations of Genesis 1?   
      
   >   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>> and something I and many scientists   
   >>>> who are Christians believe.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> The timescale God used (days or millions of years) and the way (deism,   
   >>>> TE, PC, OEC, ID, YEC, other) are of course widely debated.   
   >>>   
   >   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)