From: martinharran@gmail.com   
      
   n Fri, 14 Mar 2025 06:43:13 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
      
   >On 14/03/2025 12:33 am, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >> On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 15:18:54 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 12/03/2025 11:57 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 07:04:31 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On 12/03/2025 12:51 am, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 23:25:24 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On 11/03/2025 4:54 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On 2025-03-10 11:13:56 +0000, MarkE said:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On 10/03/2025 6:27 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 15:14:27 +1100, MarkE    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/2025 8:59 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2025 17:48:41 +1100, MarkE    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> [...]   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> You're finally getting it! To creatures like us, special creation   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> by God   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> looks like magic, yes. God conceives in his mind and speaks into   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> ""Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth,   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion   
   and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions,   
   about   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the   
   years   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and   
   so   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from   
   reason and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> experience.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> "Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to   
   hear a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture,   
   talking   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent   
   such   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance   
   in a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Christian and laugh it to scorn."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> St Augustine   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Augustine is referring to the _what_, not the _how_, right?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> He is referring to exactly what you are doing.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Once again we disagree.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> You may like to imagine you are disagreeing with Martin, but it's   
   quite   
   >>>>>>>> clear to me that you are disagreeing with St Auustine, probably   
   because   
   >>>>>>>> you haven't bothered to try to understand his point.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> My understanding is Augustine is warning that if Christians claim the   
   >>>>>>> Bible teaches something demonstrably false about the natural world, it   
   >>>>>>> brings Christianity into disrepute and invites ridicule from educated   
   >>>>>>> non-believers.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> If my understanding is correct, then it's not applicable here, since   
   I'm   
   >>>>>>> making no claims of or reference to the Bible.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Are you seriously claiming that speaking things into life is not a   
   >>>>>> reference to the Bible?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> My bad, I'd lost track of the context, I thought it was in relation to   
   NS.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> "speaking things into life" is a reference to the book of Genesis,   
   >>>>   
   >>>> So you are doing exactly what St. Augustine warned about.   
   >>>   
   >>> No, I'm not.   
   >>   
   >> You are rejecting scientific explanation and quoting from the Bible as   
   >> an alternative explanation. How is that not what St. Augustine warned   
   >> about?   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> so   
   >>>>> I'll modify my response to say that this far from "demonstrably false".   
   >>>>> It is orthodox Christian teaching,   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Name one mainstream denomination that teaches that 'speaking into   
   >>>> life' should be taken literally and evolution dismissed.   
   >>>   
   >>> As I've said before, members of various denominations subscribe to a   
   >>> range of interpretations of the biblical account, ALL of which involve   
   >>> God creating, i.e. "speaking into existence":   
   >>   
   >> Do any of the mainstream denominations take "speaking into existence"   
   >> literally as you do?   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>> 1. TE (front-loaded)	God speaks into initial conditions   
   >>> 2. TE (Martin Harran)	God speaks ???   
   >>> 3. TE (guided)		God speaks into being gradually   
   >>> 4. Progressive Creation	God speaks into being progressively   
   >>> 5. OEC/YEC/ID		God speaks into being directly/other   
   >>>   
   >>> "And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds   
   >>> fly above the earth across the vault of the sky." So God created the   
   >>> great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water   
   >>> teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every   
   >>> winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."   
   >>> (Genesis 1:20-21)   
   >>   
   >> So you are a Bible literalist. I'm glad we got that much clarified.   
   >   
   >How did you get "Bible literalist" from my list of mostly non-literal   
   >interpretations of Genesis 1?   
      
   Talking about God speaking things into life and quoting Genesis to   
   back it up is a pretty strong clue.   
      
   I note you don't deny it.   
      
   >   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> and something I and many scientists   
   >>>>> who are Christians believe.   
   >>>>>   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)