From: me22over7@gmail.com   
      
   On 14/03/2025 6:52 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   > n Fri, 14 Mar 2025 06:43:13 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >   
   >> On 14/03/2025 12:33 am, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>> On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 15:18:54 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On 12/03/2025 11:57 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 07:04:31 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On 12/03/2025 12:51 am, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 23:25:24 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> On 11/03/2025 4:54 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On 2025-03-10 11:13:56 +0000, MarkE said:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/2025 6:27 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 15:14:27 +1100, MarkE    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/2025 8:59 pm, Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2025 17:48:41 +1100, MarkE    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're finally getting it! To creatures like us, special   
   creation   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by God   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks like magic, yes. God conceives in his mind and speaks into   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> ""Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth,   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion   
   and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions,   
   about   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the   
   years   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and   
   so   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from   
   reason and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to   
   hear a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture,   
   talking   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to   
   prevent such   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast   
   ignorance in a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian and laugh it to scorn."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> St Augustine   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Augustine is referring to the _what_, not the _how_, right?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> He is referring to exactly what you are doing.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Once again we disagree.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> You may like to imagine you are disagreeing with Martin, but it's   
   quite   
   >>>>>>>>> clear to me that you are disagreeing with St Auustine, probably   
   because   
   >>>>>>>>> you haven't bothered to try to understand his point.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> My understanding is Augustine is warning that if Christians claim the   
   >>>>>>>> Bible teaches something demonstrably false about the natural world, it   
   >>>>>>>> brings Christianity into disrepute and invites ridicule from educated   
   >>>>>>>> non-believers.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> If my understanding is correct, then it's not applicable here, since   
   I'm   
   >>>>>>>> making no claims of or reference to the Bible.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Are you seriously claiming that speaking things into life is not a   
   >>>>>>> reference to the Bible?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> My bad, I'd lost track of the context, I thought it was in relation to   
   NS.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> "speaking things into life" is a reference to the book of Genesis,   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> So you are doing exactly what St. Augustine warned about.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> No, I'm not.   
   >>>   
   >>> You are rejecting scientific explanation and quoting from the Bible as   
   >>> an alternative explanation. How is that not what St. Augustine warned   
   >>> about?   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> so   
   >>>>>> I'll modify my response to say that this far from "demonstrably false".   
   >>>>>> It is orthodox Christian teaching,   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Name one mainstream denomination that teaches that 'speaking into   
   >>>>> life' should be taken literally and evolution dismissed.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> As I've said before, members of various denominations subscribe to a   
   >>>> range of interpretations of the biblical account, ALL of which involve   
   >>>> God creating, i.e. "speaking into existence":   
   >>>   
   >>> Do any of the mainstream denominations take "speaking into existence"   
   >>> literally as you do?   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> 1. TE (front-loaded)	God speaks into initial conditions   
   >>>> 2. TE (Martin Harran)	God speaks ???   
   >>>> 3. TE (guided)		God speaks into being gradually   
   >>>> 4. Progressive Creation	God speaks into being progressively   
   >>>> 5. OEC/YEC/ID		God speaks into being directly/other   
   >>>>   
   >>>> "And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds   
   >>>> fly above the earth across the vault of the sky." So God created the   
   >>>> great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water   
   >>>> teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every   
   >>>> winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."   
   >>>> (Genesis 1:20-21)   
   >>>   
   >>> So you are a Bible literalist. I'm glad we got that much clarified.   
   >>   
   >> How did you get "Bible literalist" from my list of mostly non-literal   
   >> interpretations of Genesis 1?   
   >   
   > Talking about God speaking things into life and quoting Genesis to   
      
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