From: martinharran@gmail.com   
      
   On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 22:30:41 -0500, DB Cates    
   wrote:   
      
   >On 2025-03-18 12:16 p.m., Martin Harran wrote:   
   >> On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 09:26:24 -0500, DB Cates    
   >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 2025-03-18 3:13 a.m., Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>> On Mon, 17 Mar 2025 16:31:30 -0500, DB Cates    
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On 2025-03-17 8:31 a.m., Martin Harran wrote:   
   >>>>>> On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 08:42:49 -0500, RonO    
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>> [giant snip]   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Thank you for that. I had to stop snipping replies to Ron because if   
   >>>> you snip anything at all, he claims you were running from his   
   >>>> arguments and reposts the same stuff so you end up with a post 2 or 3   
   >>>> times longer than it needs to be :(   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> QUOTE:   
   >>>>>>> We believe that God acts purposefully in creation, just as he does in   
   >>>>>>> our lives, and that he continues to actively uphold and sustain   
   creation.   
   >>>>>>> END QUOTE:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> And again, nothing there about God tweaking life the way Behe claims.   
   >>>>>>     [another giant snip]   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Out of curiosity, what do you think the phrase "he continues to actively   
   >>>>> uphold and sustain creation." mean? I mean, in particular "continues"   
   >>>>> and "actively".   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I see this as a background thing, not a direct process. I have 5   
   >>>> grown-up children, all with children of their own. I continue to   
   >>>> actively uphold and sustain them in whatever way they need but I do   
   >>>> not *interfere* in their lives. If, for example, they make decisions   
   >>>> that I don't agree with, I *might* offer an opinion if I think it will   
   >>>> be welcome but the decision is entirely theirs and I fully accept and   
   >>>> support whatever they do decide. The help and support I (and my wife)   
   >>>> give them is on request, not pushed on them, though they know it is   
   >>>> available when needed, and is given unconditionally.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> That's why I think the analogy of God as father is a particularly apt   
   >>>> one.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>> I'm having difficulty reconciling that view with a purported omniscient   
   >>> entity.   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> I'm struggling to grasp what difficulty you have, can you elaborate?   
   >>   
   >IMHO, asked for tweaking is still tweaking and an omniscient tweaker is   
   >likely doing miracles.   
      
   Maybe it's a language thing but I can't understand how you see giving   
   help on request as tweaking.   
      
   My daughter messages me and says one of their kids has a dental   
   appointment and it's awkward for she or her husband to get off work   
   that day, can I take their kid to the appointment; is that tweaking or   
   interfering?   
      
   My son comes to me because he has some work to do on his house; he can   
   get a grant for it but he has to complete the work first, can I help   
   him out with a temporary loan, I do that, he gets the grant and repays   
   me; have I interfered in or tweaked his life?   
      
   My daughter comes to me and says she has been offered a new job but is   
   not sure whether or not to take it and would like my advice, which I   
   give, making clear that it has to be her decision; is that is that   
   tweaking or interfering?   
      
   An important point relating to this is that all miracles or examples   
   of divine interference that I know of are related to *individuals* not   
   an entire species. I've asked Ron to give a specific example of a   
   miracle that he regards as tweaking but I won't hold my breath waiting   
   for it.   
      
      
   >   
   >--   
      
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