From: cates_db@hotmail.com
On 2025-03-19 6:39 a.m., Martin Harran wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 22:30:41 -0500, DB Cates
> wrote:
>
>> On 2025-03-18 12:16 p.m., Martin Harran wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 09:26:24 -0500, DB Cates
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2025-03-18 3:13 a.m., Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Mar 2025 16:31:30 -0500, DB Cates
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2025-03-17 8:31 a.m., Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 08:42:49 -0500, RonO
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [giant snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for that. I had to stop snipping replies to Ron because if
>>>>> you snip anything at all, he claims you were running from his
>>>>> arguments and reposts the same stuff so you end up with a post 2 or 3
>>>>> times longer than it needs to be :(
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> QUOTE:
>>>>>>>> We believe that God acts purposefully in creation, just as he does in
>>>>>>>> our lives, and that he continues to actively uphold and sustain
creation.
>>>>>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And again, nothing there about God tweaking life the way Behe claims.
>>>>>>> [another giant snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Out of curiosity, what do you think the phrase "he continues to actively
>>>>>> uphold and sustain creation." mean? I mean, in particular "continues"
>>>>>> and "actively".
>>>>>
>>>>> I see this as a background thing, not a direct process. I have 5
>>>>> grown-up children, all with children of their own. I continue to
>>>>> actively uphold and sustain them in whatever way they need but I do
>>>>> not *interfere* in their lives. If, for example, they make decisions
>>>>> that I don't agree with, I *might* offer an opinion if I think it will
>>>>> be welcome but the decision is entirely theirs and I fully accept and
>>>>> support whatever they do decide. The help and support I (and my wife)
>>>>> give them is on request, not pushed on them, though they know it is
>>>>> available when needed, and is given unconditionally.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why I think the analogy of God as father is a particularly apt
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'm having difficulty reconciling that view with a purported omniscient
>>>> entity.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm struggling to grasp what difficulty you have, can you elaborate?
>>>
>> IMHO, asked for tweaking is still tweaking and an omniscient tweaker is
>> likely doing miracles.
>
> Maybe it's a language thing but I can't understand how you see giving
> help on request as tweaking.
>
> My daughter messages me and says one of their kids has a dental
> appointment and it's awkward for she or her husband to get off work
> that day, can I take their kid to the appointment; is that tweaking or
> interfering?
>
> My son comes to me because he has some work to do on his house; he can
> get a grant for it but he has to complete the work first, can I help
> him out with a temporary loan, I do that, he gets the grant and repays
> me; have I interfered in or tweaked his life?
>
> My daughter comes to me and says she has been offered a new job but is
> not sure whether or not to take it and would like my advice, which I
> give, making clear that it has to be her decision; is that is that
> tweaking or interfering?
>
> An important point relating to this is that all miracles or examples
> of divine interference that I know of are related to *individuals* not
> an entire species. I've asked Ron to give a specific example of a
> miracle that he regards as tweaking but I won't hold my breath waiting
> for it.
Could you expand on how these hypotheticals analogize to an omniscient
being as the 'father figure'. I don't see it.
--
--
Don Cates ("he's a cunning rascal" PN)
--- SoupGate-DOS v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
|
