[continued from previous message]   
      
   >>>>>>>>>>>> denier of natural processes as Behe.  Supernatural miracles are   
   not   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> natural by definition.  "Puffs of smoke" is all that Behe has   
   claimed   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> about the unnatural designer did it mechanisms that he claims for   
   his   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> designer tweeking.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> You keep bringing up miracles as some form of tweaking. Behe gives   
   3   
   >>>>>>>>>>> specific examples of what you regard as tweaking.  His bacterial   
   >>>>>>>>>>> flagellum is a new life form; his blood clotting cascade and the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> immune system affect multiple species and all individuals   
   belonging to   
   >>>>>>>>>>> each specie. Please give an example of a miracle that Biologos   
   claims   
   >>>>>>>>>>> to create a newlifeform or affect an entire species - just one   
   example   
   >>>>>>>>>>> will do.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> They claim that their god made man in his own image (one of the   
   quotes   
   >>>>>>>>>> that you are denial of), and they claim that their Biblical   
   literalist   
   >>>>>>>>>> interpretation makes them believe that.  Not only that, but they do   
   not   
   >>>>>>>>>> have to make specific claims about what miracles had to occur, just   
   that   
   >>>>>>>>>> they did occur.  Behe's claims are not about new lifeforms, but   
   about   
   >>>>>>>>>> subsystems within existing lifeforms that existed at that time.    
   Behe   
   >>>>>>>>>> has claimed that his designer would have been responsible for   
   creating 3   
   >>>>>>>>>> neutral mutations in order to evolve a new function like the   
   flagellum.   
   >>>>>>>>>> Behe understood that parts of the flagellum like the F0 ATPase   
   motor had   
   >>>>>>>>>> existed for a couple billion years before it was used in the   
   flagellum.   
   >>>>>>>>>> It likely evolved in the first chemotrophes before it was also used   
   in   
   >>>>>>>>>> photosynthesis, and then in oxidative phosphorylation.  Behe was a   
   >>>>>>>>>> tweeker.  His designer was working within an evolutionary framework   
   to   
   >>>>>>>>>> create what he wanted created.  Behe's designer was obviously   
   modifying   
   >>>>>>>>>> existing functional units, and putting them together to do   
   different things.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] Even in regard to Behe's three specific claims, I have   
   already   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> given you a link to an article on the Biologos site that   
   dismantles   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> those claims and shows they don't stand up to scrutiny. Here it   
   is   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> again in case you missed it:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-can-evol   
   tion-account-for-the-complexity-of-life-on-earth-today   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> It matters because you insist they are the same as Behe yet they   
   >>>>>>>>>>> outright reject his acclaims.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> You know that it doesn't matter how bogus Behe's argument to   
   support his   
   >>>>>>>>>> tweeking is.  They are obviously not against his tweeking claims.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone should know how bogus Behe's claims are by   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> now.  He never could demonstrate that his type of IC systems   
   exist in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> nature.  That doesn't mean that he was not a tweeker, and that   
   these   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> guys are also not tweekers.  They just understand that Behe's   
   method of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> detecting miracles doesn't work.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are obviously claiming devine   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intervention.  Supernatural miracles are not natural   
   mechanisms.  You   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been deluding yourself and lying about what was claimed.    
   You know   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> why you ran from the requoted material the first time and   
   started lying.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You really need to get a grip on yourself; your paranoid fear   
   of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religious belief is on a par with the IDers' paranoid fear of   
   science.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need stop lying about the situation when you know that you   
   were   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong from the beginning of your denial of what I was   
   claiming.  What do   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you think evolutionary creationism is?  They accept biological   
   evolution   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a means of creation, but they are obviously tweekers like Behe,   
   and deny   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it was all natural just like Behe.  Making stupid claims   
   that I was   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> claiming that they denied natural mechanisms for evolution is   
   just   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stupid   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Here are your exact words that started this debate:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> "They are trying to force biological evolution into conforming   
   with   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> their Biblical interpretation.  As such what are they missing   
   about   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> biological evolution?  Some of them are denying that natural   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanisms were involved in some of that evolution.  That is   
   exactly   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> what Saint Augustine warned against doing."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Tweekers.  Behe acknowledges that biological evolution is a fact   
   of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> nature, but still tries to force biological evolution into his   
   biblical   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> interpretation.  These guys understand that biological evolution   
   is a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> fact of nature, but they believe in supernatural miracles to get   
   us   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> where we are today.  They are just more honest about supernatural   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> miracles than Behe.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to explain how it is stupid of me to say you claimed   
   they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> denied natural mechanisms for evolution.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> The need for supernatural miracles is direct denial of natural   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> mechanisms being responsible for the observed evolution.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> As above, please give a single example of any miracle accepted by   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Biologos (o Christians in general) that contradicts evolution.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> As above lying about what their reliance on supernatural mechanisms   
   >>>>>>>>>> means is just stupid and dishonest.  Supernatural is not natural by   
   >>>>>>>>>> definition.  Their claims that the supernatural was needed and is   
   still   
   >>>>>>>>>> going on means exactly what I have always claimed.  They are   
   tweekers   
   >>>>>>>>>> that are in just as much denial of natural mechanisms being able to   
   make   
   >>>>>>>>>> man in their god's image as Behe is.  Behe's argument has been   
   denial   
   >>>>>>>>>> that natural mechanisms can account for his IC systems, he just   
   never   
   >>>>>>>>>> would admit to what he thought actually happened.  These guys are   
   not   
   >>>>>>>>>> that dishonest and claim supernatural miracles were needed and are   
   still   
   >>>>>>>>>> needed to shape the creation and manage it.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> You should   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> understand that due to the definition of supernatural miracles.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Note: You did originally say "some of them" but I asked you to   
   provide   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> examples and you couldn't which meant your claim had to be taken   
   as a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> general one and you went on anyway to talk about 'they' and   
   'them' in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> general terms (an example follows immediately below).   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> It likely isn't all of them because they range from evangelical   
   biblical   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> literalists to likely pretty liberal theistic evolutionists, and   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> extent of what miracles were needed is likely debated among them   
   just as   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> it is among the ID perps and Reason to Believe exIDiots.   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)