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   talk.origins      Evolution versus creationism (sometimes      142,579 messages   

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   Message 141,106 of 142,579   
   RonO to All   
   Gish Gallop Icons of creationist denial    
   19 Jul 25 12:46:20   
   
   From: rokimoto557@gmail.com   
      
   I Googled the topics and added Duane Gish.  It just demonstrates that   
   Wells' Icons were all well used creationist denial Icons.   
      
   Wells' icons   
   1    Miller–Urey experiment   
   2    Darwin's tree of life   
   3    Homology in vertebrate limbs   
   4    Haeckel's embryos   
   5    Archaeopteryx   
   6    Peppered moth   
   7    Darwin's finches   
   8    Four-winged fruit flies   
   9    Fossil horses   
   10    Hominid evolution   
      
   I tried homology first because Gish's denial was multi level and   
   included, claims of a drosophila experiment to deny vertebrate homology.   
     Google does note this argument, but does not note that Gish's evidence   
   was for suspected genes associated with drosophila eyes and not for   
   vertebrate limbs depicted in his homology slide.  The quote that he put   
   up came from someone talking about a drosophila experiment that occurred   
   years before any actual genes had been identified as being responsible   
   for drosophila eyes.  It would have been a shift within species and did   
   not have much to do with homologous structures.  There is no reason why   
   the genes responsible for the development of homologous structures   
   cannot be swapped out or changed over time.  Any changes just have to   
   work within what is already working.   
      
   QUOTE from below:   
   "Unproven" Genetic Basis: Gish also questioned the genetic basis of   
   homology, suggesting that similar genes for reptile legs and bird wings   
   should be present if they evolved from an ancestral leg, but that   
   evidence presented by evolutionists doesn't consistently support this.   
   END QUOTE:   
      
   Homology in vertebrate limbs and Duane Gish   
      
   •	Definition: Homology refers to the similarity in anatomical   
   structures, physiology, or development of different species due to   
   descent from a common evolutionary ancestor.   
   •	Vertebrate Forelimbs as an Example: The classic example of homology is   
   the forelimbs of vertebrates, such as the human arm, bird wing, and   
   whale flipper. Despite their different functions (grasping, flying,   
   swimming), they are all composed of similar bones – the humerus, radius,   
   and ulna – arranged in a comparable pattern. This underlying similarity,   
   despite functional divergence, is explained by the idea that these   
   structures were inherited from a common ancestor who had a similar limb   
   structure, which was then modified over time through evolution to suit   
   different purposes.   
   •	Evidence for Evolution: Homologous structures like the vertebrate   
   forelimb provide strong evidence for the theory of evolution and common   
   ancestry. They suggest that diverse species have evolved from a common   
   ancestor, adapting the inherited structures to their specific   
   environments and functions.   
   •	The Pentadactyl Limb: The presence of a pentadactyl limb   
   (five-fingered limb) in various vertebrates, including humans, bats, and   
   whales, further strengthens the argument for common descent. Even though   
   their limbs serve different purposes, the shared basic structure points   
   towards a common ancestor with a similar limb design.   
   Duane Gish's arguments and criticism   
   •	Duane Gish was a prominent creationist who engaged in debates against   
   the theory of evolution.   
   •	Gish's Arguments Against Homology:   
   o	Lack of direct evidence: Gish and other creationists argued that   
   homology does not prove evolution, as nobody has witnessed the gradual   
   changes in millions of generations from a common ancestor to a bird or a   
   human.   
   o	Alternative Explanation: They suggested that similarities could be   
   explained by a "common design" by a creator, where similar structures   
   are used to solve similar functional problems.   
   o	"Unproven" Genetic Basis: Gish also questioned the genetic basis of   
   homology, suggesting that similar genes for reptile legs and bird wings   
   should be present if they evolved from an ancestral leg, but that   
   evidence presented by evolutionists doesn't consistently support this.   
   o	"Gish Gallop": Gish was known for using a debating tactic called the   
   "Gish Gallop," where he would present a large number of arguments, some   
   accurate and some inaccurate or misleading, in a short time frame,   
   making it difficult for his opponents to address them all comprehensively.   
      
      
   1	Miller–Urey experiment   
   Google   
   Duane Gish   
   Duane Gish (1921-2013) was an American biochemist and a prominent   
   advocate of young Earth creationism. He served as a Vice President of   
   the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and was known for his numerous   
   publications and debates arguing against evolutionary theory.   
   Gish's arguments against the Miller-Urey experiment   
   Gish and other creationists used the perceived shortcomings of the   
   Miller-Urey experiment to argue against the possibility of abiogenesis   
   and, by extension, against evolution.   
   Some of the key points of their critique included:   
   •	Atmospheric Composition: Gish claimed the gases used in the experiment   
   (methane, ammonia, and hydrogen) were not representative of the Earth's   
   early atmosphere, which he argued was likely oxidizing (containing   
   oxygen) rather than reducing. However, more recent research suggests the   
      
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