From: rokimoto557@gmail.com   
      
   On 9/3/2025 10:30 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   > On 4/09/2025 12:20 am, RonO wrote:   
   >> On 9/3/2025 7:36 AM, MarkE wrote:   
   >>> In the dying embers of TO, a moment to acknowledge an extensive and   
   >>> informative reply which draws on career experience. Appreciated.   
   >>>   
   >>> Re: Student of Stanley Miller comments on OoL   
   >>> RonO    
   >>> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 09:35:42 -0500   
   >>> Message ID: <1094b01$3tkab$1@dont-email.me>   
   >>>   
   >>> If nothing else, a welcome diversion from Ron's regular menu, e.g.:   
   >>>   
   >>> "MarkE has always appeared to be sane enough to understand that he is   
   >>> just lying to himself about his approach to gap denial."   
   >>>   
   >>> "MarkE is using the gap denial to support his religious beliefs, so   
   >>> he has to lie about his theological beliefs not being relevant, when   
   >>> they are the reason why he needs to wallow in the denial.  If the   
   >>> gaps did not challenge is theology he would not have to claim that   
   >>> the gaps are never going to be filled."   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> The truth seems to sting a bit.  Instead of crying about reality, what   
   >> you should do is admit that you are into the gap denial in order to   
   >> support your religious beliefs.  It is obvious that the only reason   
   >> why you want to fill the origin of life gap with some god is due to   
   >> your Biblical beliefs.  What you need to do is face reality like the   
   >> other IDiots.  When they realized that the ID perp's god-of-the-gaps   
   >> denial stupidity (that the ID perps got from the scientific   
   >> creationists that came before them) did not support their Biblical   
   >> beliefs they quit supporting the ID scam.  You just started to take   
   >> the gaps independently so that you could lie to yourself about them   
   >> without dealing with how they affect your religious beliefs.  You   
   >> admit to this by your refusal to state in a simple and straight   
   >> forward manner how you deal with the fact that the origin of life gap   
   >> is not Bibilical, and that if the gap is filled it would not be filled   
   >> by your Biblical god.  You lie to yourself about this being about the   
   >> limits of science, but it is only your way to keep denying reality in   
   >> order to maintain your religious beliefs.   
   >>   
   >> What creationist like you need to do is to face the fact that the   
   >> Bible is wrong about a lot of things that we have been able to figure   
   >> out about nature, and sort that out for yourself.  Wallowing in denial   
   >> is never going to change reality.   
   >>   
   >> Saint Augustine was already admonishing Christians in the early church   
   >> that they could not use the Bible to deny what we could figure out   
   >> about nature for ourselves.  He was having issues with Biblical   
   >> literalists that were making stupid claims about nature (likely flat   
   >> earthers, but he doesn't specifically state the issue).  The Greeks   
   >> had estimated the circumference of the earth by physical measurements   
   >> a couple of centuries before Christ was born.  Even after the failure   
   >> of geocentrism there was a resurgence of flat earth creationism after   
   >> Darwin publish the Origin of Species.  Even the young earth   
   >> creationists were whipping a dead horse at that time.  Kelvin's   
   >> counters to the geological estimates had an earth of around 300   
   >> million years old, and Darwin could only claim that if 300 million   
   >> years was all life had, that is all life had to evolve into what we   
   >> have today.  Kelvin lived long enough to learn why his estimates were   
   >> wrong, and we now understand that the earth is around 4.5 billion   
   >> years old and that life has likely existed on this planet for over 3   
   >> billion years.   
   >>   
   >> For Christianity nature has never supported the literal Biblical   
   >> creation (the earth was known not to be flat before Christ was born).   
   >> Science is just the study of nature, and nature just is not Biblical.   
   >> Descriptions of the creation were understood to be metaphorical in the   
   >> early church, but Biblical literalists have fought against this   
   >> reality to this day.  You need to stop fighting reality and deal with   
   >> it in some sane manner.  You don't want to end up like Bill and start   
   >> claiming that reality doesn't exist.  What would that mean to your   
   >> religious beliefs?   
   >>   
   >> Ron Okimoto   
   >>   
   >   
   > As I've said before, I know and respect a number of evangelical   
   > Christians who represent a spectrum of positions: Theistic Evolution   
   > (e.g. Biologos), Progressive Creation (e.g. Reasons to Believe), OEC   
   > (e.g. some ID), YEC (e.g. other ID, AIG, etc). OEC/ID is where I   
   > tentatively sit (with previously disclosed reservations with some   
   > aspects of the ID camp).   
   >   
   > As I've also said before, while my faith is not dependent on "gaps" in   
   > science, I enjoy and value science and believe it to be a companion of   
   > faith, not an opponent. Not sure why you are so unabatedly vociferous   
   > about this?   
   >   
      
   And still you have to lie about why you are into the gap denial.  The ID   
   scam is just a continuation of the gap denial that the scientific   
   creationists had to fall back on when all their creation science efforts   
   failed.  They had their flood geology claims and their screwy age of the   
      
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