[continued from previous message]   
      
   > do take science seriously.   
   >   
   > All of which takes us back to my original proposal: if my "1000 years"   
   > scenario eventuates, then rationally that adds impetus to consider   
   > supernatural explanations, even with the challenges mentioned. You may   
   > still declare your own unwillingness to consider the supernatural, even   
   > with the the most compelling "1000 years" scenario imaginable, and may   
   > justify that by claiming that such explanations are not knowable. I   
   > would respond that, at some point, a refusal to at least explore would   
   > betray an a priori commitment to materialism in the face of scientific   
   > evidence. And you may disagree, and there we would reach a stalemate.   
      
   Once more I ask how we would consider supernatural explanations. This is   
   the heart of your problem.   
      
   > Okay, we know where we stand. The best we can do then is stick to   
   > discussing science and make our own choices as to where that may lead.   
   >   
   > As for the "1000 years" of OOL, thankfully there's no need to wait, it's   
   > already here, the examples below being just a small sample...   
      
   I have no idea what you think "the examples below" are supposed to mean.   
      
   >>>>> -------   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> * For example:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> 1. The thread here "New" "ideas" on origin of life: "The study   
   >>>>> finds life’s origin faces severe mathematical challenges".   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> 2. Deeper OOL paradoxes only partially acknowledged, e.g. https://   
   >>>>> link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11084-014-9379-0   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> 3. Or this (https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/HMw_ZoXIIOc/   
   >>>>> m/ nb1u4MD6AAAJ):   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> This talk is from 2015, though David Deamer's book "Assembling   
   >>>>> Life" that is based on this was published in 2019. Note Bruce   
   >>>>> Damer's call for a new approach to OoL, and note the uncanny   
   >>>>> alignment with Tour, Bains, Long Story Short, etc:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> 4:29 “[OoL research has] been mainly focused on individual solution   
   >>>>> chemistry experiments where they want to show polymerization over   
   >>>>> here, or they want to show metabolism over here, and Dave and I   
   >>>>> believe that it's time for the field to go from incremental   
   >>>>> progress to substantial progress. So, these are the four points   
   >>>>> we've come up with to make substantial progress in the origin of   
   >>>>> life, and the first one is to employ something called system   
   >>>>> chemistry, having sufficient complexity so instead of one   
   >>>>> experiment say about proteins, now you have an experiment about the   
   >>>>> encapsulation of proteins for example, and informational molecules   
   >>>>> built from nucleotides in an environment that would say be like an   
   >>>>> analog of the early Earth, build a complex experiment. Something   
   >>>>> we're calling sufficient complexity, and all of these experiments   
   >>>>> have to move the reactions away from equilibrium. And what do we   
   >>>>> mean by that? Well, in in your high school chemistry experiments,   
   >>>>> something starts foaming something changes color and then the   
   >>>>> experiment winds down and stops. Well, life didn't get started that   
   >>>>> way. Life got started by a continuous run-up of complexity and   
   >>>>> building upon in a sense nature as a ratchet. So we have to figure   
   >>>>> out how to build experiments that move will move away from   
   >>>>> equilibrium…”   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> 6:31 “You can't sit in a laboratory just using glassware. You have   
   >>>>> to go to the field. You have to go to hot springs, you have to go   
   >>>>> to […] Iceland and come check and sit down and see what the natural   
   >>>>> environment is like, rather than being in the ethereal world of   
   >>>>> pure reactants and things like that…”   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)