[continued from previous message]   
      
   just what actually exists, what actually happened, and what nature   
   actually is.   
      
   Behe is a theistic evolutionist tweeker who understands that his   
   designer evolved the flagellum over a billion years ago.  He thinks that   
   his designer has acted in non Bilbical ways to evolve life on this   
   planet.  He has always understood that the "Big Tent" is a lie.  Really,   
   any legitimate science could never support the vast majority of   
   creationists that get fooled by the ID scam.  Most of their support   
   still comes from YEC, and you have ID perps like Luskin that claim to   
   have gotten their PhD studying rocks over 2 billion years old, and Meyer   
   (the creationist clown that has run the ID scam unit from the beginning)   
   claims that he has the ID science that proves that his designer is   
   responsible for designing lifeforms during a 25 million year period over   
   half a billion years ago for the Cambrian explosion.   
      
   Most of the creationists that support the ID scam, just want to be lied   
   to, and that is what the ID perps do best.   
      
   The claim that the ID perps could do the same science as everyone else   
   and support their Biblical creationist beliefs has always been a lie.   
   YEC ID perps like Nelson never wanted the other ID perps to succeed in   
   doing any real science.  He joined to support the ID Wedge scam because   
   he understood that the ID perps did not have any legitimate ID science.   
   If they had, had any it would have just been more science for Nelson to   
   deny.   
      
   You need to deal with what the ID scam actually is, and what Science   
   actually is.   
      
   Ron Okimoto   
      
   >   
   > The first choice of an answer is totally unacceptable since it is "not   
   > science" to the materialist since it involves something supernatural.   
   > God must have caused it.  Yes, the response from the naturalist would of   
   > course be, "Then where did God come from?"  I do have my personal answer   
   > to that question, but it is irrelevant to the question at hand.   
   >   
   > As far as I can gather, all the other explanations boil down to the   
   > brute fact of, "It has always existed."  Mass or matter, energy, and   
   > even the space.  The naturalist somehow is able to ignore the laws of   
   > thermodynamics and even logic in this event and is comfortable with the   
   > idea that the "stuff" has just been around for ever, that it has always   
   > existed.  In effect, you are claiming that the universe has an uncaused   
   > reality in this scenario, effectively giving it God like powers.   
   >   
   > If you accept that fine.  I simply cannot.  It had to come from   
   > somewhere for me.  Of course this gets into not only the how, but the   
   > "why" question.  But not for the naturalist.  They don't ask why, and   
   > evidently are not bothered by the how.  That shocks me to be honest. The   
   > motivation for doing so is interesting, but that's another discussion,   
   > as is why so many are uninterested in even asking the question.   
   >   
   > Starting at the beginning like this has led me to an increased interest   
   > in origins, yet you would suggest I'm just a not so clever person   
   > parroting some cool sounding soundbite I heard somewhere.  In reality   
   > this is what I believe is the truth, and if discussion on things like   
   > this topic on origins remain reasonable, I'm willing to expose myself   
   > further.   
   >   
   >   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)