[continued from previous message]   
      
   > person would do pseudoscience on one hand, you then go on and on about   
   > doing something to prove ID, and when they present arguments for it   
   > dismiss them because they require something supernatural.  People like   
   > me simply don't care what you consider proper science.  I am interested   
   > in why the ID researchers bother you so much that you insist on   
   > persecuting them the way you do.  I don't find that you do it either new   
   > or unique, I just find the motivation interesting.   
      
   ID is pseudoscience because it is psuedoscience.  If ID were valid   
   science you likely would not support it.  The Top Six means that the   
   Bible is wrong about creation.  This has been known by Christianity   
   since the early church, so it doesn't mean much to a lot of Christians   
   because they have understood that the Bible just gets a lot wrong about   
   nature, and Science is just the study of nature.  The Greeks were   
   measuring the circumference of the earth a couple hundred years before   
   Christ was born, so Augustine was already advocating that Christians not   
   use the Bible to refute what we could understand about nature.   
   Augustine was likely still a geocentrist, young earth creationists, but   
   he was not a flat earth creationist.  The authors of the Bible got their   
   cosmology from their neighbors that had been civilized for a longer   
   period of time.  The earth is not flat, we do not live in a geocentric   
   universe,  There is no firmament above the earth that some god has to   
   open up to let it rain, and the earth isn't only a few thousand years   
   old.  Life has been evolving on this planet for billions of years.  IC   
   would have demonstrated that fact if it had been real science.  The   
   flagellum evolved over a billion years ago.  What do the gaps in the   
   human fossil record mean when they occurred within the last 10 million   
   years of the existence of life on this planet?   
      
   As a religious person the ID scam should bother you too.  The good lie   
   for god was made up to ridicule Christians.  It is not something to live   
   by.  At the turn of the Century the ID scam had not become the major   
   topic on TO.  Scientific creationism was sill the creationist ploy most   
   addressed on TO at that time.  The ID perps were claiming to teach their   
   junk in the public schools, but none of their supporters knew what ID   
   was, nor what would be taught.  The ID perps ran an IDiotic friendly   
   discussion board at their ARN product marketing web site.  I started to   
   participate at ARN and found out that ID was just a creationist scam,   
   and that most of the IDiotic creationist supporters understood that   
   fact.  Most of the ARNites supported teaching ID in the public schools   
   until the bait and switch started to go down.  A few claimed that the   
   bait and switch had not gone down and that ID would still be taught in   
   Ohio, but most of them accepted the fact that no ID science was going to   
   be taught in the public schools.  ID's popularity was cresting in 2002   
   and multiple creationist school boards and legislators had to have the   
   bait and switch run on them in just the first couple of months.  I   
   recall Wisconsin, Minnesota, Montana, and New Mexico as being among the   
   first to have the bait and switch run on them along with Ohio.  Most of   
   the IDiots at ARN stopped supporting teaching the junk in the public   
   schools, but still supported using ID as bait.  A year later when it was   
   verified that no ID would be taught in Ohio with the publication of the   
   first draft of their creationist switch scam lesson plan that eventually   
   had all mention of ID perps stricken from it and they dropped the   
   creationist web sites that they tried to sneak in.  No one at ARN could   
   deny that the bait and switch had gone down.  Mike Gene (likely the most   
   knowledgeable IDiotic poster on ARN) admitted that he had given up on   
   teaching the ID scam junk in the public schools back in 1999.  This was   
   2003.  Mike Gehe had been noted to have attended the early conferences   
   of the ID perps, so he understood what they had wasn't science.  Mike   
   Gene still continued to support using ID as bait until 2007 when he and   
   Salvador Cordova finally quit the ID scam and admitted that the ID   
   science had never existed.  This was the same year that the ID perps   
   published their current teach ID scam propaganda where they claim that   
   the Dover decision was wrong, and that it is still legal to teach ID in   
   the public schools outside of Dover PA.   
      
   It turned out that no one knew would would be taught in the public   
   schools, and the ID perps have never published a public school lesson   
   plan demonstrating that they had any valid ID science and how they   
   wanted that ID science to be taught.  All ID has been for over 23 years   
   is bait.   
      
   Such a dishonest religious scam should put off any honest and competent   
   Christian.   
      
   Just look at TO.  It turned out that the last lingering IDiots only   
   wanted to be lied to.  They never really wanted to support any possible   
   ID science.  After the Top Six demonstrated that fact to be true, they   
   quit supporting the ID scam.  Pagano just quit posting, Kalk claimed   
   that he was going to concentrate on other religious aspects of his   
   beliefs, and Bill had already started his claims about reality not   
   existing because reality is not Biblical.  Bill just claimed that he had   
   never supported the ID creationist scam even though he had supported ID   
   on TO for over a decade at that time.   
      
   You should try to understand what the ID perps are selling, and   
   determine if you want to support that claptrap.  It is not Biblical, and   
   did not support most of the Biblical creationists IDiotic beliefs.   
      
   The Big Bang occurred over 13 billion years ago.  Some fine tuning would   
   have occurred before and during the Big Bang.  It took 8 billion years   
   for the materials that make up our solar system to be created by dying   
   stars, so that our solar system could be fine tuned for life.  The moon   
   was not created during the 4th period of time, but was created at the   
   same time that the earth was created.  Life arose on this planet over 3   
   billion years ago.  Life evolved on this planet as microbes for billions   
   of years before the flagellum evolved by designer tweeking over a   
   billion years ago among micro organisms.  Multicellular organisms began   
   evolving with in the last Billion years of the existence the earth.  Sea   
   creatures evolved long before land plants existed that were supposed to   
   have been the first lifeforms created during the 3rd period of time.   
   Meyer's Cambrian explosion gap denial occurred within a 25 million year   
   period over half a billion years ago, long before the first land plants   
   existed on earth, and the crop plants described by the Bible as being   
   created during the 3rd period of time would not exist until just before   
   the dinos met their extinction.  The gaps in the human fossil record   
   that they are talking about would exist within just the last 10 million   
   years of the existence of life on this planet.   
      
   Young earth creationists have always been the main supporters of the ID   
   scam, but they would not believe any legitimate ID science concerning   
   the Top Six.  If they understood what the ID perps had to teach they   
   would not want to teach it.  That is how stupid and dishonest   
   creationists have to be in order to support the ID scam.   
      
   >  > Even the ID perps did not claim that their Top Six god-of-the-gaps   
   > ---snip---   
   >   
   > I am simply not interested in your interpretation of any of this.  I've   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)