[continued from previous message]   
      
   > read it all countless times here, even wasted some hours on the   
   > talk.origins website reading things you then said were outdated.  All of   
   > it is up to interpretation, and even the importance of much of it is   
   > debatable.  Many things EV think are "discoveries" end up being things   
   > ID proponents would expect to see, just for a different reason.   
      
   Willful ignorance is just stupid.  What you need to do is deal with   
   reality, and you will likely end up like Kalk and Bill.   
      
   MarkE is the only hold out, and he only wants to be lied to.  He is only   
   in to the ID scam for the denial.  He doesn't want to understand what   
   IDiotic success would mean to his religious beliefs.  The others   
   understand that they never wanted the ID perps to succeed in   
   accomplishing any ID science.  It would all just be more for them to deny.   
      
   >   
   > I am also not interested in your continuing attacks about the Katzmiller   
   > case.  It means nothing to me or my opinion on origins about what   
   > happened in some court case decided by a judge in a shit show of a   
   > trial.  Yes, I've read many of the parties involved and their work, but   
   > how they handled a trial is irrelevant to me.  For you, the winning   
   > outcome is of utmost importance.  It's all that matters.  Some judge   
   > said it was not science.  This cannot be in schools.  That alone is   
   > laughable to me, yet I completely understand why he did it.  You go on   
   > and on, I guess about their ultimate motive being to have religion   
   > taught in schools.  I would agree that society should have a separation   
   > between church and state and don't think any of this can be done   
   > properly in today's school system.  I would rather it was not.  Yet,   
   > your religion of materialism, does the same thing you accuse the ID   
   > people of.  You do it here all the time.  You spit out figures like   
   > millions of years, you seem to give Darwin's natural selection powers a   
   > rational person might think it doesn't have, and many other things you   
   > treat as proven fact, when in reality they are all theories.  If you   
   > would only say, "We believe" things happened like this it would be more   
   > palatable, but you don't.  I don't respond to this stuff usually, I just   
   > notice it and find it less than truthful.   
      
   Willful stupidity is nuts.  What you need to do is learn from history so   
   that you aren't duped by the ID scam.  It is likely that you are just   
   like MarkE and only want to be lied to, but what kind of existence is that?   
      
   What winning?  ID was known to be a loser from the start.  After the   
   bait and switch started to go down Nelson (Nelson was one of the   
   original ID perps that started the ID scam unit at the Discovery   
   Institute) started admitting that the ID science had never existed and   
   that they were just working on developing some real ID science.  Nelson   
   was YEC and he would never have signed up to support the Wedge strategy   
   if the other ID perps had, had any real ID science.  The Nelson quote   
   from 2005 is usually put up, but Nelson was making similar comments   
   years before that was published.  Nelson has continued to support using   
   ID as bait to this day.  Just look it up.  You don't have to believe me.   
     Find out for yourself.   
      
   >   
   > When it really comes down to it, most of the stuff you think you know,   
   > is never a threat to my beliefs.  Most is either expected, interpreted   
   > in silly ways, based on faulty assumptions, or just outright theoretical   
   > guesses that align with materialism.  EV never seems to connect the   
   > dots.  That's OK, I would expect everyone to keep looking.  Yet if you   
   > attend today's schools, you would never know this is the reality.   
      
   What a nut job.  You obviously do not understand what the situation   
   actually is.  Willful stupidity and ignorance is not your friend.  There   
   is no real reason for you to even try to support the ID scam at this   
   time.  You likely do not want them to succeed in producing any valid ID   
   science anymore than Kalk and Bill did.   
      
   You need to deal with the Top Six in an honest manner with some level of   
   competence and determine if they really support your religious beliefs.   
   They do not support the beliefs of most of the Biblical creationists   
   that need to be lied to by the ID perps.   
      
   https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/a2K79skPGXI/m/uDwx0i-_BAAJ   
      
   This is a link to the ID perp's top six in their own words.  According   
   to Grok these are among the best scientific arguments for ID.  You need   
   to deal with them as the ID perps present them.  MarkE can't do that,   
   and neither could Kalk and Bill.  The Top Six means that nature is not   
   Biblical.  That is why the Reason to Believe old earth creationists are   
   no longer IDiots.  The Top Six do not support their Biblical creation model.   
      
   If you are like me this fact should not bother you, but it does bother   
   Biblical creationists that want to believe that the Bible can be   
   supported by science.  If you have already accepted that the Bible isn't   
   a science textbook, and that it has already been shown to be wrong about   
   many things that we have figured out about nature, you should not need   
   to be a dishonest IDiotic creationist.   
      
   >   
   > Ahh, that's enough for now.  This is the part of this group I don't   
   > like.  I suppose on Usenet it is inevitable, but the topic does not have   
   > to end up in heated debates with insults thrown, yet it always ends up   
   > that way here, and it ends up in wasted time.  You in particular seem to   
   > thrive on it all.  I used to, but I no longer do.   
   >   
   Willfully ignorant and stupid people are the ones that detract from   
   usenet, they always have.   
   After the Bait and swtich started to go down there were no competent,   
   honest and knowledgeable IDiots in existence.  The defections after the   
   Top Six came out demonstrated that to be true.  The only ones left were   
   the ignorant, incompetent and or dishonest.  That has been true for   
   decades, and you should realize that if you had actually done a decent   
   historical dive into the subject.  How long have the ID perps claimed to   
   be able to teach their nonexistent ID science in the public schools?   
   How many times has the bait and switch been run on any creationist rubes   
   that have believed them?  What should Kitzmiller have told you?  Why did   
   Phillip Johnson admit that there had never been any ID science worth   
   teaching in the public schools after sitting in the court room every day   
   of testimony.  Johnson is called the godfather of the ID scam by the   
   other ID perps, and he is the one that supposedly came up with the teach   
   ID scam Wedge strategy and got the initial funding to start the ID scam   
   unit at the Discovery Institute.   
      
   Ron Okimoto   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)