[continued from previous message]   
      
   That review is still available on Google Groups; I'd really  love you   
   to read it and tell me what in it you disagree with,   
      
   https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/z8Yq7lvkAfU/m/um8mt8MDAgAJ   
      
      
   >I do have my personal answer   
   >to that question, but it is irrelevant to the question at hand.   
   >   
   >As far as I can gather, all the other explanations boil down to the   
   >brute fact of, "It has always existed."  Mass or matter, energy, and   
   >even the space.  The naturalist somehow is able to ignore the laws of   
   >thermodynamics and even logic in this event and is comfortable with the   
   >idea that the "stuff" has just been around for ever, that it has always   
   >existed.  In effect, you are claiming that the universe has an uncaused   
   >reality in this scenario, effectively giving it God like powers.   
   >   
   >If you accept that fine.  I simply cannot.  It had to come from   
   >somewhere for me.  Of course this gets into not only the how, but the   
   >"why" question.  But not for the naturalist.  They don't ask why, and   
   >evidently are not bothered by the how.  That shocks me to be honest.   
   >The motivation for doing so is interesting, but that's another   
   >discussion, as is why so many are uninterested in even asking the   
   >question.   
   >   
   >Starting at the beginning like this has led me to an increased interest   
   >in origins, yet you would suggest I'm just a not so clever person   
   >parroting some cool sounding soundbite I heard somewhere.   
      
   No, I'm not making any judgement at all about how clever you are; on   
   the contrary, I highly respect anyone who has prepared to question and   
   challenge rather than just accepting what they are told. I do however   
   think you're coming to conclusions on very limited understanding and   
   need to broaden your thinking, possibly by broadening your reading.   
      
   > In reality   
   >this is what I believe is the truth, and if discussion on things like   
   >this topic on origins remain reasonable, I'm willing to expose myself   
   >further.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)