From: wolverine01@charter.net   
      
   On 11/5/2025 8:03 PM, RonO wrote:   
   > On 11/5/2025 5:01 PM, sticks wrote:   
   >> On 11/4/2025 1:51 PM, RonO wrote:   
   >>  > On 11/4/2025 11:02 AM, sticks wrote:   
   >>  >> On 11/4/2025 10:44 AM, sticks wrote:   
   >>  >>> On 11/4/2025 9:36 AM, RonO wrote:   
   >>  >>>> I asked Google: "Is there any legitimate scientific support for the   
   >>  >>>> Discovery Institute's alleged intelligent design science?"   
   ---snip---   
   > You should try to understand what the ID perps are selling, and   
   > determine if you want to support that claptrap.  It is not Biblical, and   
   > did not support most of the Biblical creationists IDiotic beliefs.   
      
   I will go back and look at the things that you've mentioned.  However, I   
   will say I don't look at the issue like you do.  Your complaint seems to   
   stem from the last 45 years or so of the participants and their supposed   
   "agenda" moving forward.  ID for me does not have those limitations,   
   which is why I spent little time trying to understand your problem with   
   all of this. I am interested in the design aspect of origins and that is   
   nothing new in the discussion.  I see design in many aspects and like   
   you, have to decide if what someone says shows signs of design, make a   
   decision on it's worthiness.   
      
      
      
   > The Big Bang occurred over 13 billion years ago.  Some fine tuning would   
   > have occurred before and during the Big Bang.  It took 8 billion years   
   > for the materials that make up our solar system to be created by dying   
   > stars, so that our solar system could be fine tuned for life.  The moon   
   > was not created during the 4th period of time, but was created at the   
   > same time that the earth was created.  Life arose on this planet over 3   
   > billion years ago.  Life evolved on this planet as microbes for billions   
   > of years before the flagellum evolved by designer tweeking over a   
   > billion years ago among micro organisms.  Multicellular organisms began   
   > evolving with in the last Billion years of the existence the earth.  Sea   
   > creatures evolved long before land plants existed that were supposed to   
   > have been the first lifeforms created during the 3rd period of time.   
   > Meyer's Cambrian explosion gap denial occurred within a 25 million year   
   > period over half a billion years ago, long before the first land plants   
   > existed on earth, and the crop plants described by the Bible as being   
   > created during the 3rd period of time would not exist until just before   
   > the dinos met their extinction.  The gaps in the human fossil record   
   > that they are talking about would exist within just the last 10 million   
   > years of the existence of life on this planet.   
   >   
   > Young earth creationists have always been the main supporters of the ID   
   > scam, but they would not believe any legitimate ID science concerning   
   > the Top Six.  If they understood what the ID perps had to teach they   
   > would not want to teach it.  That is how stupid and dishonest   
   > creationists have to be in order to support the ID scam.   
      
   I am a YEC, but also think what you call the Big Bang did happen 13.8   
   million years ago.  I don't agree with much else of the time frame you   
   lay out above, for various reasons.  I am not trying to convince anyone   
   of anything for either science or religion.  So while I don't care if a   
   creationist is Y or O personally, I don't think it matters to their   
   "salvation" if they are a YEC or an OEC believer.  I doubt I will ever   
   feel the need to attack them on this issue like you do.  The same tactic   
   could be used against the OEC who, as you appear to do, embrace some   
   forms of species evolution in their theory of origins.  Some people do   
   this by claiming the evolutionists, for example, simply want to remove   
   anything Supernatural from society.  Of course this is true for the most   
   part, but it is unnecessary to the topic.  I simply don't care about the   
   motivation other than looking to see if there is a paradigm involved in   
   how the evidence is interpreted, and even if there is one I still   
   believe I have the ability to come to my own conclusions.   
      
   >>  > Even the ID perps did not claim that their Top Six god-of-the-gaps   
   >> ---snip---   
   >>   
   >> I am simply not interested in your interpretation of any of this.   
   >> I've read it all countless times here, even wasted some hours on the   
   >> talk.origins website reading things you then said were outdated.  All   
   >> of it is up to interpretation, and even the importance of much of it   
   >> is debatable.  Many things EV think are "discoveries" end up being   
   >> things ID proponents would expect to see, just for a different reason.   
   >   
   > Willful ignorance is just stupid.  What you need to do is deal with   
   > reality, and you will likely end up like Kalk and Bill.   
   >   
   > MarkE is the only hold out, and he only wants to be lied to.  He is only   
   > in to the ID scam for the denial.  He doesn't want to understand what   
   > IDiotic success would mean to his religious beliefs.  The others   
   > understand that they never wanted the ID perps to succeed in   
   > accomplishing any ID science.  It would all just be more for them to deny.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> I am also not interested in your continuing attacks about the   
   >> Katzmiller case.  It means nothing to me or my opinion on origins   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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