[continued from previous message]   
      
   isotopes that existed when the Earth originally formed, and we have a   
   lot of decay products to understand that to be true.  Take U238 half of   
   it is gone that once existed (half-life around 4.5 billion years).   
   There isn't much U235 left because it's half life is only 700 million   
   years.  Your old universe, but young earth isn't compatible with the Top   
   Six.  Old earth day for agers are also incompatible with the ID perp's   
   Top Six (like the Reason to Believe OEC that want the order of creation   
   to be Biblical).  The intelligent design creationist scam is not your   
   friend.   
      
   No one is attacking the YEC but the ID perp's bait and switch scam is   
   victimizing them.  It has always been the YEC denying reality.  Just   
   pointing out what they are doing isn't attacking anyone.  The truth   
   should not be viewed as an attack.  What is an attack is the bait and   
   switch, and the stupid lie about the ID scam supporting a big tent   
   religious revival.  Just look at the Top Six.  YEC are excluded by any   
   legitimate scientific discoveries involving them whether they it is   
   called ID science or creation science.  The YEC scientific creationists   
   used to use the same Top Six gap denial arguments.  They just didn't   
   call it intelligent design.  They just claimed that science didn't have   
   an explanation for those gaps, and claimed that their god could fill the   
   gaps.  As I pointed out the YEC scientific creationists only used the   
   Top Six gaps as fire and forget denial of reality.  They treated them as   
   independent bits of denial and never related them to reality or to each   
   other.  No coherent model of creation was ever developed by the   
   scientific creationist nor the ID perps that followed them.  The ID   
   perps screwed up and told the rubes that they were listing them in the   
   order in which they must have occurred in this universe, and that order   
   is not Biblical, and it is not obviously not YEC compatible.   
      
      
      
      
   >   
   >>>  > Even the ID perps did not claim that their Top Six god-of-the-gaps   
   >>> ---snip---   
   >>>   
   >>> I am simply not interested in your interpretation of any of this.   
   >>> I've read it all countless times here, even wasted some hours on the   
   >>> talk.origins website reading things you then said were outdated.  All   
   >>> of it is up to interpretation, and even the importance of much of it   
   >>> is debatable.  Many things EV think are "discoveries" end up being   
   >>> things ID proponents would expect to see, just for a different reason.   
   >>   
   >> Willful ignorance is just stupid.  What you need to do is deal with   
   >> reality, and you will likely end up like Kalk and Bill.   
   >>   
   >> MarkE is the only hold out, and he only wants to be lied to.  He is   
   >> only in to the ID scam for the denial.  He doesn't want to understand   
   >> what IDiotic success would mean to his religious beliefs.  The others   
   >> understand that they never wanted the ID perps to succeed in   
   >> accomplishing any ID science.  It would all just be more for them to   
   >> deny.   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>> I am also not interested in your continuing attacks about the   
   >>> Katzmiller case.  It means nothing to me or my opinion on origins   
   >>> about what happened in some court case decided by a judge in a shit   
   >>> show of a trial.  Yes, I've read many of the parties involved and   
   >>> their work, but how they handled a trial is irrelevant to me.  For   
   >>> you, the winning outcome is of utmost importance.  It's all that   
   >>> matters.  Some judge said it was not science.  This cannot be in   
   >>> schools.  That alone is laughable to me, yet I completely understand   
   >>> why he did it.  You go on and on, I guess about their ultimate motive   
   >>> being to have religion taught in schools.  I would agree that society   
   >>> should have a separation between church and state and don't think any   
   >>> of this can be done properly in today's school system.  I would   
   >>> rather it was not.  Yet, your religion of materialism, does the same   
   >>> thing you accuse the ID people of.  You do it here all the time.  You   
   >>> spit out figures like millions of years, you seem to give Darwin's   
   >>> natural selection powers a rational person might think it doesn't   
   >>> have, and many other things you treat as proven fact, when in reality   
   >>> they are all theories.  If you would only say, "We believe" things   
   >>> happened like this it would be more palatable, but you don't.  I   
   >>> don't respond to this stuff usually, I just notice it and find it   
   >>> less than truthful.   
   >>   
   >> Willful stupidity is nuts.  What you need to do is learn from history   
   >> so that you aren't duped by the ID scam.  It is likely that you are   
   >> just like MarkE and only want to be lied to, but what kind of   
   >> existence is that?   
   >   
   > Oh, I have far more confidence in my ability to reason than I guess you   
   > think I do.   
      
   Then demonstrate that.  Can your religious beliefs survive acceptance of   
   the ID perps filling the Top Six gaps with a non Biblical designer?   
   MarkE claims that he can use the gaps to lie to himself about reality   
   without reality impacting his religious beliefs.  He claims that he   
   doesn't have to deal with the fact that filling the gaps would mean that   
   his Biblical religious beliefs are wrong.  MarkE's whole reason for the   
   gap denial is so that what is written about the creation might still be   
   true, but what is around the gaps has already destroyed the possibility   
   that the Biblical creation mythology could be true.   
      
   It is crazy, but MarkE wants to use the ID scam to support his religious   
   beliefs, but he knows that he can't deal with any ID scientific success   
   that would mean that those religious beliefs were wrong.  He doesn't   
   want to believe in the designer that fills those gaps.   
      
   >   
   >   
   >> What winning?  ID was known to be a loser from the start.  After the   
   >> bait and switch started to go down Nelson (Nelson was one of the   
   >> original ID perps that started the ID scam unit at the Discovery   
   >> Institute) started admitting that the ID science had never existed and   
   >> that they were just working on developing some real ID science.   
   >> Nelson was YEC and he would never have signed up to support the Wedge   
   >> strategy if the other ID perps had, had any real ID science.  The   
   >> Nelson quote from 2005 is usually put up, but Nelson was making   
   >> similar comments years before that was published.  Nelson has   
   >> continued to support using ID as bait to this day.  Just look it up.   
   >> You don't have to believe me.   Find out for yourself.   
   >   
   > Again, you are concentrating on what this group of people does.  ID to   
   > me is so much more than that.  It's nothing new, and has been written   
   > about since Plato in one for or another.   
      
   The ID perps make the same claim.  In fact, some of them claim to be   
   Platonists.  Just look it up at their web site.  They are claiming to be   
   doing what you claim to be doing, but most of them are OEC of one type   
   or another.  YEC like Nelson are a small minority.   
      
   https://www.discovery.org/id/   
      
   >   
   >   
   >>> When it really comes down to it, most of the stuff you think you   
   >>> know, is never a threat to my beliefs.  Most is either expected,   
   >>> interpreted in silly ways, based on faulty assumptions, or just   
   >>> outright theoretical guesses that align with materialism.  EV never   
   >>> seems to connect the dots.  That's OK, I would expect everyone to   
   >>> keep looking.  Yet if you attend today's schools, you would never   
   >>> know this is the reality.   
   >>   
   >> What a nut job.  You obviously do not understand what the situation   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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