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   about nature because of what the Bible said.  A Greek had estimated the   
   circumference of the earth by physical measurements a couple of   
   centuries before Christ was born.   
      
   Saint Augustine was likely still a young earth geocentric, but my guess   
   is that he would have accepted what has been discovered since he was   
   around.  Newton was born the year that Galileo died under house arrest,   
   and Geocentrism should have been dead after Newton, but it lingered on   
   for a couple of centuries.  YEC should have been dead by the time Darwin   
   published the Origin of Species.  Creationist had been proposing   
   multiple global floods to account for the past biomes that had existed   
   on this earth long before Darwin wrote the Origin of Species.  Even   
   Kelvin's estimate put the earth at around 300 million years old, and all   
   Darwin could claim was that if that was how old the earth is that is how   
   old it is.  Kelvin was wrong about the earth and sun because he did not   
   know about radioactive decay and nuclear fusion.   
      
   The Universe was not created in seven days or the seven periods of time   
   described by the Bible.  The Hebrew had adopted a cosmology that they   
   had gotten from their neighbors that had been civilized for a longer   
   period of time.  The earth is not flat, and there is no firmament above   
   the earth that some god has to open up to let it rain.  The universe is   
   not geocentric, and the universe is very old.  It took 8 billion years   
   to create the elements that our solar system is made of.  The ID perps   
   understand this and it is part of their fine tuning gap denial.   
      
   The Bible isn't just wrong to me, but to anyone that understands the   
   current situation.  Why aren't you a geocentric flat earth creationist?   
   They still exist, and they believe that the Bible is not wrong.   
      
   >   
   >> You seem to be an old Universe young earth creationist, but the Top   
   >> Six doesn't support that.   
   >   
   > They support it to me.  I went and looked at all the 6 and it leads to   
   > my question, as I am still not entirely sure I understand your position   
   > on it.  Is your problem with the ID people solely that a court said they   
   > have no science and thus they need to exit stage left, or do you really   
   > believe all their theories and conclusions are simply wrong and cover   
   > for trying to teach religion in school, and just want them gone?   
      
   My position on the ID scam is that the ID perps have just been scam   
   artists for over 23 years.  All they have ever used ID for is as bait to   
   fool the rubes into taking their obfuscation and denial switch scam that   
   they have to claim has nothing to do with ID so they can't be accused of   
   trying to push their religious beliefs into the public schools.  The   
   obfuscation and denial switch scam is just the obfuscation and denial   
   that the scientific creationists resorted to when their creation science   
   failed.  There was a recent thread where I noted that all of Wells'   
   Icons of Evolution that had been used to create the switch scam lesson   
   plan had been used in the Gish Gallop when Gish had "debated" real   
   scientists in the 1980's.   
      
   The ID perps understood that the ID science never existed before   
   Kitzmiller.  Nelson has been an ID perp since the start of the ID scam   
   with the creation of the ID scam unit at the Discovery Institute.  He   
   was an original fellow (since he was still a graduate student he was   
   called a junior fellow or something like that).  Nelson is YEC and he   
   would have never joined up to support the teach ID scam Wedge strategy   
   if there had been any legitimate ID science.  After the bait and switch   
   started to go down Nelson started admitting that the ID science had   
   never existed, but that the ID perps had been working on creating some.   
      
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Nelson_(creationist)   
      
   QUOTE:   
   Easily, the biggest challenge facing the I.D. community is to develop a   
   full-fledged theory of biological design. We don't have such a theory   
   right now, and that's a real problem. Without a theory, it's very hard   
   to know where to direct your research focus. Right now, we've got a bag   
   of powerful intuitions and a handful of notions, such as irreducible   
   complexity, but as yet, no general theory of biological design.   
   END QUOTE:   
      
   Nelson started making statements like this after the bait and switch   
   started with Ohio in 2002.  Nelson has continued supporting the use of   
   ID as bait to this day.  None of the orignial ID perps resigned in   
   disgust that the bait and switch had started to go down.  None of the   
   Top Six support YEC.  The gaps in the human fossil record could not be   
   called gaps unless they had been accurately dated as to when they   
   occurred within the last 10 million years.  Meyer has always claimed   
   that 25 million years is not enough time to account for all the   
   different kinds of animals that existed at that time, and he understands   
   that that 25 million year period has been more accurately dated since   
   the Scientific creationists used the same gap denial because in the   
   1980's the gap was 45 million years, and the period of time occurred   
   over half a billion years ago.  When the scientific creationist used the   
   argument the gap was wider, but more taxa were included.   
      
   How can the Top Six possibly support your YEC notions?  How old is the   
   universe?  How old is the earth?  The fine tuning argument has the earth   
   fine tuned for life 4.5 billion years ago using elements that the ID   
   perps acknowledge took 8 billion years to create.  Life arose on this   
   planet over 3 billion years ago.  Behe is claiming that the flagellum   
   was designed over a billion years ago when life existed as   
   microorganisms.  Meyers claims that the Cambrian explosion is limited to   
   a 25 million year period that happened over half a billion years ago.   
      
   In the introduction to their Top Six the ID perps tell the rubes that   
   they are in the order in which they must have occurred in this universe,   
   and that order is not Biblical.  It does not fit into the Reason To   
   Believe Biblical creation model, and the OEC Reason To Believe   
   creationists no longer claim to be IDiots that support the ID scam.   
      
   >   
   >> The ID perps are contending that part of the fine tuning of our planet   
   >> for life is that the designer had to wait around 8 billion years for   
   >> the elements that make up our solar system to be created by dying   
   >> stars.  The designer did not create the elements with the Big Bang,   
   >> what was created was a lot of Hydrogen and some helium.  The earth is   
   >> really old (4.5 billion years old).  As I pointed out you have ID   
   >> perps claiming to have gotten their PhDs looking at rocks around 2   
   >> billion years old.  These guys understand that there were a lot more   
   >> isotopes that existed when the Earth originally formed, and we have a   
   >> lot of decay products to understand that to be true.  Take U238 half   
   >> of it is gone that once existed (half-life around 4.5 billion years).   
   >> There isn't much U235 left because it's half life is only 700 million   
   >> years. Your old universe, but young earth isn't compatible with the   
   >> Top Six. Old earth day for agers are also incompatible with the ID   
   >> perp's Top Six (like the Reason to Believe OEC that want the order of   
   >> creation to be Biblical).  The intelligent design creationist scam is   
   >> not your friend.   
   >   
   > All opinion based on assumptions that can be interpreted otherwise.  I   
   > don't feel like getting into this area either right now because of time,   
   > but I'm sure you know there are many pieces of evidence and theories   
      
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