[continued from previous message]   
      
   > countering your stance.   
      
   It isn't how the ID perps interpret the Top Six.  It isn't my stance.   
   It is the OEC creationist stance of most of the ID perps.  Luskin claims   
   that other ID perps contributed to the Top Six, but they aren't named as   
   authors.   
      
   If your assumptions are so different from both OEC ID perps and real   
   scientists why do you think that your assumptions are valid?   
      
   Dembski once claimed around the turn of the century that he wasn't a   
   creationist in the common use of the term at that time because he found   
   all young earth creationist arguments unconvincing.  Dembski is OEC.  He   
   was forced to recant and appologize to his students, at the religious   
   college that was employing him at the time, for telling them that the   
   flood may have been a local event, and that the earth was likely older   
   than a few thousand years.  If he had not appologized he would have lost   
   his job.  As it was his contract was not renewed and the ID scam unit   
   had to hire him full time to give him a job.   
      
   >   
   >   
   >> No one is attacking the YEC but the ID perp's bait and switch scam is   
   >> victimizing them.  It has always been the YEC denying reality.  Just   
   >> pointing out what they are doing isn't attacking anyone.  The truth   
   >> should not be viewed as an attack.  What is an attack is the bait and   
   >> switch, and the stupid lie about the ID scam supporting a big tent   
   >> religious revival.  Just look at the Top Six.  YEC are excluded by any   
   >> legitimate scientific discoveries involving them whether they it is   
   >> called ID science or creation science.  The YEC scientific   
   >> creationists used to use the same Top Six gap denial arguments.  They   
   >> just didn't call it intelligent design.  They just claimed that   
   >> science didn't have an explanation for those gaps, and claimed that   
   >> their god could fill the gaps.  As I pointed out the YEC scientific   
   >> creationists only used the Top Six gaps as fire and forget denial of   
   >> reality.  They treated them as independent bits of denial and never   
   >> related them to reality or to each other.  No coherent model of   
   >> creation was ever developed by the scientific creationist nor the ID   
   >> perps that followed them.  The ID perps screwed up and told the rubes   
   >> that they were listing them in the order in which they must have   
   >> occurred in this universe, and that order is not Biblical, and it is   
   >> not obviously not YEC compatible.   
   >   
   > I don't really care about this past history you keep referring to.  I've   
   > looked at the top 6 and nothing doesn't fit into my personal beliefs.   
   > Are you saying these 6 gap issues and the theories are completely false,   
   > or just put together in the way this group does is what you find fault   
   > with.   
      
   Willful ignorance is dishonest.  The Top Six are in the order in which   
   they must have occurred in this universe, and that order is not the YEC   
   Biblical order.  Not only that, but you have to ignore their context.   
   They are gaps that can be used for god-of-the-gaps YEC denial, but the   
   gaps exist in a reality that is not Biblical.  The YEC have always used   
   each of the Top Six as independent bits of denial because taken together   
   and in context, they could never support the YEC Biblical creation.   
   Meyer was employed as an oil geologist at one time, and he is the ID   
   perp telling you that his designer was responsible for designing a bunch   
   of animals within a 25 million year period over half a billion years ago.   
      
   >   
   > ---snip---   
   >   
   >   
   >>>   
   >>> Oh, I have far more confidence in my ability to reason than I guess   
   >>> you think I do.   
   >>   
   >> Then demonstrate that.  Can your religious beliefs survive acceptance   
   >> of the ID perps filling the Top Six gaps with a non Biblical designer?   
   >   
   > If that is what they do, of course not.  I am unaware of where they have   
   > done this.  Even so, it doesn't matter to me what they do.  I don't   
   > follow them and base my beliefs on what they say.  I certainly have read   
   > things by some of the players, but have not read of this non Biblical   
   > designer.  I don't even know what that would mean.   
      
   The ID perps have always claimed that they have the ID science to   
   support their creationist beliefs.  It is the ID perps that are claiming   
   that they can fill the Top Six gaps with a designer using their ID   
   science.  The designer that fills those gaps in the order that the ID   
   perps acknowledge is the order in which they must have occurred in this   
   universe would not be the designer described in the Bible.  The Top Six   
   do not support the Biblical beleifs of the type of creationists that   
   need to lie to themselves about there being any ID scientific support   
   for their religious beliefs.  That is why most if the IDiots who had   
   supported the ID scam for well over a decade on TO quit the ID scam when   
   they had to deal with the Top Six.  Any legitimate ID science would just   
   be more science for them to deny.   
      
   >   
   >   
   >> MarkE claims   
   >   
   > ---snip---   
   >   
   > Yeah, I don't think I want to comment on past threads here.  How would I   
   > know if what you say is his actual position, or if it is one you've   
   > given him?   
   What you need to do is become less ignorant of the creationist fiasco   
   that you are coming in late into the issue.  The bait and switch is all   
   that has been happening for the last 23 years.  All that ID has ever   
   been used for by the creationists is as bait.  No real ID science has   
   ever been produced, just as you noted above when you wanted to deny that   
   the gaps have ever been filled.  If you are honest with yourself you do   
   not want them to be filled because you claim to be YEC.  Just the four   
   that are about life on earth span more than 3 billion years according to   
   the ID perps.  Abiogenesis occurred over 3 billion years ago (MarkE   
   understand this because he has spent a lot of time defining that gap).   
   Behe claims that his bacterial flagellum was designed over a billion   
   years ago.  Meyer claims that his designer is responsible for designing   
   animals within a 25 million year period over half a billion years ago,   
   and their gaps in the human fossil record occur as temporally designated   
   gaps within the last 10 million years of the evolution of life on earth.   
     They would not be gaps if we did not know what periods of time we were   
   missing.   
      
   Ron Okimoto   
   What you should obviously do is look into the matter, and determine for   
   yourself how lame the creationist position has always been in terms of   
   the ID scam.   
      
   >   
   > ---snip---   
   >   
   >>>>> When it really comes down to it, most of the stuff you think you   
   >>>>> know, is never a threat to my beliefs.  Most is either expected,   
   >>>>> interpreted in silly ways, based on faulty assumptions, or just   
   >>>>> outright theoretical guesses that align with materialism.  EV never   
   >>>>> seems to connect the dots.  That's OK, I would expect everyone to   
   >>>>> keep looking.  Yet if you attend today's schools, you would never   
   >>>>> know this is the reality.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> What a nut job.  You obviously do not understand what the situation   
   >>>> actually is.  Willful stupidity and ignorance is not your friend.   
   >>>> There is no real reason for you to even try to support the ID scam   
   >>>> at this time.  You likely do not want them to succeed in producing   
   >>>> any valid ID science anymore than Kalk and Bill did.   
   >>>   
   >>> There you go.  Very unhelpful.   
   >>>   ---rest snipped---   
   >> Just the truth.  You are coming into this discussion pretty much   
   >> totally ignorant of what the situation has been for decades, and even   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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