From: me22over7@gmail.com   
      
   On 17/12/2025 6:47 am, John Harshman wrote:   
   > On 12/16/25 4:22 AM, MarkE wrote:   
   >> On 16/12/2025 1:23 pm, John Harshman wrote:   
   >>> On 12/15/25 4:53 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   >>>> Larry Moran offers this analysis:   
   >>>>   
   >>>> "...A small number of these neutral mutations will become fixed in   
   >>>> the population and it's these fixed mutations that produce most of   
   >>>> the changes in the genome of evolving populations. According to the   
   >>>> neutral theory of population genetics, the number of fixed neutral   
   >>>> mutations corresponds to the mutation rate. Thus, in every evolving   
   >>>> population there will be 100 new fixed mutations per generation.   
   >>>> This means that fixation of 22 million mutations would take 220,000   
   >>>> generations. The average generation time of humans and chimps is   
   >>>> 27.5 years so this corresponds to about 6 million years. That's   
   >>>> close to the time that humans and chimps diverged according to the   
   >>>> fossil record. What this means is that evolutionary theory is able   
   >>>> to explain the differences in the human genome—it has explanatory   
   >>>> power."   
   >>>> https://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2025/12/how-many-regulatory-sites-in-   
   >>>> human.html   
   >>>>   
   >>>> However, chimp to human evolution involves major (profound)   
   >>>> adaptations, including:   
   >>>>   
   >>>> - Bipedalism and capacity for long-distance walking and endurance   
   >>>> running: short, broad pelvis; S-shaped spine; long legs relative to   
   >>>> arms; arched feet with non-opposable big toe.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> - Cognitive capacity increase: larger cranial capacity; dramatically   
   >>>> expanded neocortex; highly developed prefrontal cortex; these   
   >>>> produce: abstract reasoning; symbolic language; long-term planning;   
   >>>> mathematics, music, art; large cooperative societies; etc.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> - Other physiology: extended childhood and adolescence; long   
   >>>> lifespan; high energy investment in brain development; reduced   
   >>>> muscle mass relative to body size; craniofacial morphology   
   >>>> supporting speech articulation and dietary flexibility; precision   
   >>>> hand grip and fine motor control.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> How many non-neutral adaptive mutations (in fact, highly adaptive,   
   >>>> complex and coordinated suites of mutations) are required, over and   
   >>>> above the estimated neutral/near-neutral mutations, to produce these   
   >>>> adaptations, and how are these accounted for in the time available?   
   >>>>   
   >>> How many adaptive mutations? A few thousand, perhaps. Coordinated   
   >>> suites? Why would that be necessary? And how they would be accounted   
   >>> for is simple: you should understand that a number of mutations many   
   >>> orders of magnitude greater than the ones that eventually became   
   >>> fixed would have happened during human evolution. The ones that were   
   >>> advantageous were therefore a small sample of a much larger number   
   >>> than you are imagining here.   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> Here's your dilemma:   
   >>   
   >> 1. The human brain is the most complex object in the known universe*   
   >   
   > I've heard that said. But is it true? Is it more complex than a blue   
   > whale's brain, or an elephant's? And how much more complex is it than a   
   > chimp's brain, by whatever measure you're using?   
      
   It is difficult to quantify, but even a casual observer of chimps and   
   humans recognises the scale of the difference. Civilisation and   
   spaceflight, for example.   
      
   If you claim a functional difference of that magnitude could be obtained   
   with the addition of only a few thousand bits of information, I'd say   
   you've never designed anything. Sorry, no free lunch.   
      
   >   
   >> 2. Chimps are uncannily intelligent, but human intelligence is on   
   >> another level: abstract reasoning; symbolic language; long-term   
   >> planning; mathematics, music, art; large cooperative societies; etc   
   >   
   > Chimps have some of those in embryonic form.   
      
   And an earlier version of ChatGPT is ChatGPT 5.2 in embryonic form, just   
   needing a few thousand bytes of code to evolve?   
      
   >   
   >> 3. Therefore, the evolution of the human brain and human intelligence   
   >> from a chimp requires either:   
   >>   
   >> (a) a very large increase in functional complexity; or   
   >>   
   >> (b) the activation of largely pre-existing, latent capacity   
   >   
   > You fail to define "functional complexity". How do you measure it?   
   >   
   >> If (a), then the generation of large amounts of new functional   
   >> complexity must be driven by adaptation (neutral drift without strong   
   >> selection cannot refine and ratchet up functional complexity);   
   >> therefore, the number of adaptive mutations required in this case   
   >> would be much, much more than "A few thousand".   
   >   
   > You keep using that word "therefore"; I do not think it means what you   
   > think it means. Generally, it signals a conclusion that follows from a   
   > preceding premise. But here it doesn't.   
      
   That was sloppy of me. I'll rephrase it as:   
      
   If (a), then the generation of large amounts of new functional   
   complexity must be driven by adaptation (neutral drift without strong   
   selection cannot refine and ratchet up functional complexity);   
   therefore, adaptive mutations are required in this case, and as I argue   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)